Ikki: love or hate? [Archive]

Nee'lahn

04-26-2009, 05:20 PM

Well I never really understood all the hate that certain people on this forum have for Ikki. I mean I have read this manga and I don't see anything that Ikki does that can really be considered as any plothax or being a Gary-Stu or whatever.And while he may act like an asshole at times thats just his personality I dont really see him as being an asshole. There is a big difference between acting like an asshole sometimes and being an asshole. As for plot development while Kazu has had the most plot development Ikki has had some good moments like the time when he was helping his sempai playing football in chapter 87 or when he became Storm King. Oh and Ikki is a total badass.

Overall I'm not too bothered with Ikki one way or another and usually I try and like him, I go through phases, but my biggest irritaion with him is how inconsistent his character appears to be get looking back it does fit with his over all image. I'll explain what i mean, basically his personality changes to fit what O!G seems to think he should do, like he swings to fit a required role, eg he can be annoying, rude and gross, then he can be mysterious wise and a great leader and inspiration, and recently he cries alot. I liked him the most when he was battling with his decision to be part of Genesis, when he actually seemed bothered by the pressure and sort help and then his unusal decision that period of the manga had Ikki for me a pretty cool character. I don't know when it started (probably after Kururu appeared) but he seemed to change, like he'd elivated onto another plane and his story got less convincing and more mundane as he just seemed to get so strong so fast, very good riders suddenly started putting all their faith in him and for a ages I couldn't see why he was the best thing since slice bread (its doesn't help is also the time in the story when Kazu's storyline started to blossom and gather momentum) and he seems to have an increasing fanclub when he was in the hospital not doing much while the rest of his team are insulted for being nothing special. Sure his battle of Ringo was pretty wicked (when she was beating him up and that seemed normal) than for Kururu to show up and fix his At and then he can "draw" with Ringo while actually she'd tired herself out didn't fit right for me, he seemed to win unfairly and get the credit. Not to mention over Sora's betrayal he was really angsting for all of one chapter, he didn't see a woman pierced through the chest with a helicopter blade and have her blood splatter on his face while basically witnessing a the crazy man that is Nike first hand and being held hostage by him and being totally useless in that situation, comparing their situations I thought it would have been more likely for Kazu to never want to touch AT again- to be fair I like how that story arc panned out since it set up the foundation for Ikki's current unbalanced emotional state (i.e one minutes he's super confident-telling his friend he'll have to relearn At to beat him- the next he could be in tears-listening to the presidents story. I'm aware Kazu cried to but people sort of expect him to cry more which is strange since he's probably more mature than Ikki). I think what I'm trying to say is he seems to change so quickly a great example would be when they are registering for the tournament, one minute he's the idiot that has burned the papers, then he's cool getting new papers, then theirs a parade for him, then he has agitos stick and they want to kill him then the girls come all wanting to be the one to win his affection, then he asks Simcra on a date then he's stealing stuff in flaco's apartment than beating falco up when he shoots at them. Its difficult to keep up with him, if you compare him to anyone on his team Buccha, Agito, Onigiri, Emiri, Yayoi and to a less extent Kazu that doesn't happen. Its like Ikki has to fill the role of hero/saviour, comedian, leader, best friend, rival, idiot, intelligent gifted prodigy, lecherous boy of his age, the worlds hope, hot guy, bad boy (East side guns leader), cool idol that everyone admires yet want to kill att he same time. He can't pull it all to a convicningly, its like he had a character but nows he's trying to fill the boots to be an even better hero. At this stage of the story you expect that but then all the crying contradicts it and its so hard to figure if he's actually developed into someone capable of taking on characters like Sora or Kiric who have been set up that they seem amazing and transcent all others because you know he should be and at time it looks like he may be but most of the time his best moments usually come with someone helping him so you can't tell if he was alone would be be half as good yet you know he's the lead guy so he must be.

It's like O!G has set up all these great side characters and can't quite get his main character to convincingly get to the skill level and emotional maturity he needs to be. Hes been riding approxiately a year maybe more maybe less, he's 13/14 and has to get stronger than men who were created for AT practically and have been riding for at least 15 years probably if not more. Agito's skill seemed to be explained becuase he's been doing At long enough and proabably had a good trainer (Kaito) before the story started. Buccha's skill is again attributed to his expereicne outside the storyline same goes with Ringo, onigiri is fittingly talentless and Kazu works hard every oppurtunity he gets (Ikki possibly still does behind the scenes) and Emiri isn't exceptional only in strength which has nothing to do with her riding abiltiy and is proabbly from her dad, Yayoi's Tuner abilites was an interesting twist. His development seems disjointed, best example would be Kazu vs Ikki fight when he's suddenly blowing tornados from his hands, it was a great WTH moment for me, it was like yay Kazu does soemthing ...oh wait ikki has to get one up again. When soemthing great happens to a character he has to be better or be their motivation or be the one they rely on and fair dues he is the protagonist but in contrast with how they don't want him living with them or will beat him up. I did like the small talk Kazu and ikki had after though, that was a good Ikki moment you could see what all the fuss was about.

Also it seems the over used wind.wing metaphor has become an excuse for him to do anything he pleases and at times you're wondering how can the adults he knows let him get away with how he acts, motifs aside. Also since I'm older than 13 and 14 (I'm lived through that age period) he acts that age and then at times he acts older (when he gets the serious look) that makes it look like he's aged 4 years and you do wonder why O!G decided to have his character so young.

Also the other storylines are more interesting than him- well except maybe his lovelife but really thats not going anywhere- it doesn't take much to figure the ultimate destination of a shounen protagonist but the side stories are just more interesting. O!G has done well to have Sano being the turncoat instead of the cliche of the hero's best friend or the lone wolf going over to the darkside, the kidnappings all work out, character intros o nthe whol are done well and other characters stories are great and makes them likeable and cool depending which has had the effect of overshadowing ikki and now readers have just become less interested in him- in some cases-I suppose you could say we prefer the story focusing on someone else.

On the other hand if it wasn't for him they'd be no story, he's way better than naruto, his deity status was present at the start he's just got overblown, he has really cool moments and actually can be a great friend, he still gets beat up, he's got going on about wanting to change the world and converting people to think like him more often they seem to be impressed with him and willingly bet on him all their hopes and dreams which isn't his fault. O!G has made it clear he's always been the competive type that will squash anyone elses dreams so he'll be on top, he has decent qualities and to all intense his biggest crime is fitting into the stereotypically shounen hero category with a few exceptions, for only he's not a loving and friendly guy who is all goofy smile and little talent until he finds his calling sort of thing (fair dues Ichigo-bleach isn't like that but at least Ichigo was antisocial to begin with), Ikki's the guy who is the centre of attention for some reason.

Okay I'm done.

Reflector

04-26-2009, 05:27 PM

I'd suggest spamming some enter there, Nee'lahn. It's a little hard to read. I'll edit this post after I've read through your little essay. I just thought I'd let you know.

Nee'lahn

04-26-2009, 05:37 PM

...yeah I got carried away ^^; Thank you, I will try and spam the enter key in future.

You don't have to edit it,I'm sure you have better things to do and it may drive you insane. Maybe it'll be best to ignore my post everyone will have their own opinions anyway and I tend to over generalise when I ramble.

Reflector

04-26-2009, 05:55 PM

Nee'lahn

04-26-2009, 06:22 PM

Lol when you say it like that he's quite pathetic really XD

Some would say Kururu had to persaude him to get a regalia to show he needed it, which again shows he is actually pretty weak.

Well spitfire intended for Kazu to inherit the storm regalia, he was acknowledged by the king of that road that when the time came he wanted the right rider to have them. Didn't give Kazu much choice about it either and Agito was there to tell him he couldn't wear them.

Ikki on the other hand when he got Hako's fake cores could use them immediately, so thats another unfair point.

Urgh Ikki's harem is wasting some decent characters, Ringo would be cooler if she wasn't Ikki obessed and I'd probably like Kururu more to. Simcra is a lost cause.

The Sora and Ikki thing, he spent around 3 weeks/months however long in the hospital with him looking at girls knickers running around on their hands, and that make him a brother, what about the guy (forgot his name) that he went to when he was troubled about Genesis, the one who sent him tickets for all the games, I thought him more of a brotherly figure.

Waking_Dreamer

04-26-2009, 06:58 PM

The Sora and Ikki thing, he spent around 3 weeks/months however long in the hospital with him looking at girls knickers running around on their hands, and that make him a brother, what about the guy (forgot his name) that he went to when he was troubled about Genesis, the one who sent him tickets for all the games, I thought him more of a brotherly figure.

I dont have time to read the large posts so Ill just respond to this for now.

I dont have a problem with Ikki seeing Sora as a bro...that seems actually natural.

The other Guy who plays AT football was only ever Ikki's senpai. He was just the hotshot in the higher year who Ikki could never win against. Ikki's got respect for him but other than that...that was their only connection.

Ikki had respect for Sora cause of his AT skills and he was already comfortable/important person for Rika. Not only did Sora teach Ikki cool shit, they had similar personalities (whether for show or not) and its obvious how they just clicked, whether it was ATs, wing road, babes it was all good. If you cant compare/compete pantyshots with your bro - who can you do it with it?

windwaker

04-26-2009, 07:32 PM

I dont have time to read the large posts so Ill just respond to this for now.

I dont have a problem with Ikki seeing Sora as a bro...that seems actually natural.

The other Guy who plays AT football was only ever Ikki's senpai. He was just the hotshot in the higher year who Ikki could never win against. Ikki's got respect for him but other than that...that was their only connection.

Ikki had respect for Sora cause of his AT skills and he was already comfortable/important person for Rika. Not only did Sora teach Ikki cool shit, they had similar personalities (whether for show or not) and its obvious how they just clicked, whether it was ATs, wing road, babes it was all good. If you cant compare/compete pantyshots with your bro - who can you do it with it?

Agreed.

I dont understand how anyone could not see the brotherly relationship ikki and sora had. Even if they didnt hang out for a long time, their personalities were so so similar.

Nee'lahn

04-26-2009, 07:49 PM

I dont have time to read the large posts so Ill just respond to this for now.

I dont have a problem with Ikki seeing Sora as a bro...that seems actually natural.

The other Guy who plays AT football was only ever Ikki's senpai. He was just the hotshot in the higher year who Ikki could never win against. Ikki's got respect for him but other than that...that was their only connection.

Ikki had respect for Sora cause of his AT skills and he was already comfortable/important person for Rika. Not only did Sora teach Ikki cool shit, they had similar personalities (whether for show or not) and its obvious how they just clicked, whether it was ATs, wing road, babes it was all good. If you cant compare/compete pantyshots with your bro - who can you do it with it?

Well maybe I'm just too cynical for my own good but I can see you point, mainly the 'just clicked' thing, neevr happened to me but that does happen.

tornadoking

04-26-2009, 08:45 PM

Ok, I'm done. Here goes.

Well, I really dislike Ikki. It stems from the fact that he gets so much attention and fame for free. The guy had gotten more praise in chapter 5 than Kazu and Buccha have together in the whole manga. The wing/Wind/storm BS methaphorst every Ikki dickrider use are incredibly corny, and they give him freedom to do anything he/OG pleases. He can act like an asshole; It's ok, he's their wings. He can pull off random hax shit regarding his road; it's okay, the wind favors him.

Also, the fact that every single female he comes across magically falls in love with him, despite the fact that he takes dumps in public. His romance plotline is all over the place. It's poorly developed (especially Simca's), and is there to make him look more badass, and to give pantyshots and titties.

And I agree with you about the thing that Ikki's personality seems to change according to the situation. OG tries very hard to make Ikki look great. The recent deal with the hilarious drama queen overreacting was just that. OG is trying to make Ikki's life seem so tough and hard, despite the fact that he has gotten much handed to him on a silver platter.

And his SORAAAAAAA, YOU WERE LIKE A BROTHER TO ME is incredibly cheesy, badly written and it's a fucking overused plotline. And the Storm road, hohohooo. Why is there even a goddamn storm road? That's right, Ikki can't be down on the level of normal riders, he's got to be a king. So the dickriders went out of their way to create a new road for him, just so he could have a pimp title. DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE ROAD CONTAINS THE EXACTLY SAME PRINCIPLE AS THE PREVIOUS ONE. What the hell, OG?
And somehow, Ikki's road is considered a trump card in conquering the tower. Black flame mentions that because Koga has the Storm road, a new road, they will have an advantage. Why don't Agito go form the Killer road and Kazu the Blazing road, if it's that useful and easy? Oh yeah, fuck off, not main characters.

Let's compare:

Ikki lost the regalia of the his road, which he gained a little too easily. It was stolen, and now in the possession of a superior rider of that said road. That makes the rider the legitimite King. What happens next: "Aww, poor Ikki, let's build a new reggy for you from scratch. And let's give it the name Storm Regalia. You are the Storm King now."

Kazu lost the regalia of the his road, which he gained a little too easily. It was stolen, and now in the possession of a superior rider of that said road. That makes the rider the legitimite King. What happens next: "Lol, quit bitching, emo kid. They're just shoes fag, deal with it." That coming from the same guy who threw a tantrum when he was in the same situation, and had to be subdued by giving him a new road.

And he acts like a huge douchebag 90% of the time. And gets away with it. Seriously, I don't get why Kazu considers him his best friend after all the abuse he's gone through because of Ikki.

The reason ikki could use the reggy so easily is because of the training he got from the original wind king, Spit wasnt around to teach kazu shit and aeon doesnt really care for kazu at all.

There was definetly a brother relationship between them, if you compare their actions around their friends they are very similiar.

Ikki is a motherf***ing bitch talking bout just shoes. The bitch stopped riding because of those type of f***ing shoes so why the hell would he say that. It could be that he was just trying to cheer him up as he is his best friend but if he meant it he is a bitch.

The storm king of hurricane road hmmm. The hurricane road, how is it different than the wing/wind, can someone point out the differences between them. I bet if kururu thought ikki was an a** she wouldnt make shit for him but she loves him and he has to be a king because he needs care in his time of need or so he can face sora on equal ground. I really dont like how things are just handed to koga altleast in naruto the fox was actually a burden. I would have no problem if ikki was using some different moves that were never seen before and sora cant do naturally but pile tornado is cake for sora.

Ikki was kinda funny at first but with the introduction of how awesome kazu was when he beat up the old guns kazu was an instant favourite. The manga kinda forces you to like him at some points though. I understand why kururu and simca like him because he acts all cool infront of them, ringo is just a ikki follower or something, he tool a dump in public and does things that she shouldnt like but I guess thats why she is koga's #1 supporter.

RICECM

04-27-2009, 12:19 AM

You guys forget that Air Gear is a SHONEN manga. Which means that 85% of the time, the author is gonna try to draw the attention of a minor. What better way to do it with a lead character who acts like a bigshot, and him pulling off his goals. Not to mention the toilet humor,(taking craps in public) and the creud behavior that normal teenagers possess. In my opinion, Ikki is my 2nd favorite shonen manga character next to Goku. You know why? BECAUSE OF ALL THE THINGS PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD ARE BITCHING ABOUT. :Nedic:

windwaker

04-27-2009, 12:23 AM

Ikki is a motherf***ing bitch talking bout just shoes. The bitch stopped riding because of those type of f***ing shoes so why the hell would he say that. It could be that he was just trying to cheer him up as he is his best friend but if he meant it he is a bitch.

I dunno, i agree he could have said it better, but his point was that Spit's will was more important than the regalia itself, which is in a sense true. And ikki didnt stop riding because the regalia was stolen from him, he stopped riding because he was betrayed by someone very close to him.

The storm king of hurricane road hmmm. The hurricane road, how is it different than the wing/wind, can someone point out the differences between them. I bet if kururu thought ikki was an a** she wouldnt make shit for him but she loves him and he has to be a king because he needs care in his time of need or so he can face sora on equal ground. I really dont like how things are just handed to koga altleast in naruto the fox was actually a burden. I would have no problem if ikki was using some different moves that were never seen before and sora cant do naturally but pile tornado is cake for sora.

I think that the hurricane road involves more of being involved with the wind attacks. The only example i have right now is limited express, how he was charging inside of his own wind attacks.

This is just a theory, but it would make sense if that was part of the hurricane road (being more directly involved with the wind) given the whole "eye of the storm" thing.

But as of now we havent seen much hurricane stuff, and since hurricane is related to the wing road they will be pretty similar.

Ikki was kinda funny at first but with the introduction of how awesome kazu was when he beat up the old guns kazu was an instant favourite. The manga kinda forces you to like him at some points though. I understand why kururu and simca like him because he acts all cool infront of them, ringo is just a ikki follower or something, he tool a dump in public and does things that she shouldnt like but I guess thats why she is koga's #1 supporter.

Ringo likes Ikki because he's like a superhero, thats why everyone likes him. When things seem impossible he just comes through. Sometimes it comes off as lame, but it happens nonetheless.

I think a lot of the times it comes off as being pretty cool (against buccha, behemoth, his plans against OSF). But sometimes they fuck it up with too much "wind" talk.

tornadoking

04-27-2009, 01:04 AM

I dunno, i agree he could have said it better, but his point was that Spit's will was more important than the regalia itself, which is in a sense true. And ikki didnt stop riding because the regalia was stolen from him, he stopped riding because he was betrayed by someone very close to him.

I think that the hurricane road involves more of being involved with the wind attacks. The only example i have right now is limited express, how he was charging inside of his own wind attacks.

This is just a theory, but it would make sense if that was part of the hurricane road (being more directly involved with the wind) given the whole "eye of the storm" thing.

But as of now we havent seen much hurricane stuff, and since hurricane is related to the wing road they will be pretty similar.

Ringo likes Ikki because he's like a superhero, thats why everyone likes him. When things seem impossible he just comes through. Sometimes it comes off as lame, but it happens nonetheless.

I think a lot of the times it comes off as being pretty cool (against buccha, behemoth, his plans against OSF). But sometimes they fuck it up with too much "wind" talk.

I guess thats why he stopped riding but I still dont think he should have just got a regalia like that. I think ikki is a really great rider and thats the difference between him and onigiri and any of the many kings that spit and yoshi were talking about but to create a regalia for him and to give him a new road. If I see ikki do a move that doesnt make me think hmm sora could have thought of that I will call it a road. I do think that his road is a different one but I just really need some proof from OG and not the difference in regalia but the roads.

The superhero thing is awesome, I do like when ikki saves the day sometimes. But I just dont like people not working for things. He did deserve the wind regalia not so sure about storm because of the little diffrerence in roads. Ikki is not that much of a bad character, i really like his character but I was kinda pissed when I saw the post about the flame regalia. Anyway I understand why ringo likes him now she doesnt see the faults in ikki but only the good things.

windwaker

04-27-2009, 01:44 AM

I guess thats why he stopped riding but I still dont think he should have just got a regalia like that. I think ikki is a really great rider and thats the difference between him and onigiri and any of the many kings that spit and yoshi were talking about but to create a regalia for him and to give him a new road. If I see ikki do a move that doesnt make me think hmm sora could have thought of that I will call it a road. I do think that his road is a different one but I just really need some proof from OG and not the difference in regalia but the roads.

The superhero thing is awesome, I do like when ikki saves the day sometimes. But I just dont like people not working for things. He did deserve the wind regalia not so sure about storm because of the little diffrerence in roads. Ikki is not that much of a bad character, i really like his character but I was kinda pissed when I saw the post about the flame regalia. Anyway I understand why ringo likes him now she doesnt see the faults in ikki but only the good things.

Well Ikki DOES work hard, as was shown in that chapter about how much he practices, but i agree that the storm thing is a bit iffy.

But really, there was no other way to do it, since there is absolutely no way that non regalia'd ikki could beat regalia'd Sora. It just couldnt happen. So while yea it was an easy way out, it was necessary. I think OG will show how the hurricane is different from the wind at some point, even if its just a slight variation.

And Ringo does see his faults, its just that he has never let her down in the long run. She knows he can be ridiculous sometimes, and she knows he can be stupid sometimes, but when it really matters he always comes through. Thats why she admires him so much.

Xemnas

04-27-2009, 02:09 AM

A thinly veiled Ikki hate topic..

*does not feeling like typing long explanations at 2 in the morning"

I'll leave it at this

I don't get emotionally attached to characters in shonen manga (especially one with a plot like this) enough to truly love or hate them the way some people do here...i really don't see the big deal

I understand discussion, debate, analysis...but all in all topics like this are really redundant we cannot change O!G's mind and the more we focus on petty things like the main char (surprise!!) being the main character then we can enjoy AG for what it is:

Pretty art, Fanservice and awesome double page spreads ^_^

Waking_Dreamer

04-27-2009, 02:36 AM

^ Yup, mangas like this I read pretty much for simple entertainment and for the inspirational art. Overall I dont really have extremes of love or hate for any particular aspect of the manga because I dont really need to put heavy investment to enjoy it.

As for Ikki and the title of Storm King I dont know the details of his road but I think it has been foreshadowed pretty early as a possibily valid road.

Ikki has been refered to as the quintessential Stormrider so the title of Storm King later on does have some sense.

http://www.onemanga.com/Air_Gear/47/02-03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Air_Gear/65/19/

Either way Im sure will see the difference between the wind and hurricane roads when they finally collide!

windwaker

04-27-2009, 03:14 AM

I wouldnt go so far as to say this is a hate topic.

Most of the "hate" in this thread is basically about how ikki and kazu were both put in almost identical situations, and yet one came out of it much better than the other for no other reason but because the plot demanded it.

As of now we have seen little to no evidence that the hurricane road is any different from the wing road, and that it is hardly deserving of its own seperate regalia, and if it isnt different, then that is just bad writing.

Also, i think that people would like Ikki a lot more if OG didnt try to push him on everybody so harshly (what with all the wind stuff and everybody practically worshipping the ground he walks on)

Reflector

04-27-2009, 05:59 AM

Most of the "hate" in this thread is basically about how ikki and kazu were both put in almost identical situations, and yet one came out of it much better than the other for no other reason but because the plot demanded it.

As of now we have seen little to no evidence that the hurricane road is any different from the wing road, and that it is hardly deserving of its own seperate regalia, and if it isnt different, then that is just bad writing.

Also, i think that people would like Ikki a lot more if OG didnt try to push him on everybody so harshly (what with all the wind stuff and everybody practically worshipping the ground he walks on)

Yes, those are the three core points why I can't stand him. Especially the last one. The wind worshipping got old in chapter 20. That's over 200 chapters ago. And it seems that the wind faggotry is growing stronger the closer we get to endgame.

And the theory about Storm road being about riding the wind isntead of just shooting it, isn't riding the wind the most basic technique of the Wing road? Because I think it is.

You guys forget that Air Gear is a SHONEN manga. Which means that 85% of the time, the author is gonna try to draw the attention of a minor. What better way to do it with a lead character who acts like a bigshot, and him pulling off his goals. Not to mention the toilet humor,(taking craps in public) and the creud behavior that normal teenagers possess. In my opinion, Ikki is my 2nd favorite shonen manga character next to Goku. You know why? BECAUSE OF ALL THE THINGS PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD ARE BITCHING ABOUT.
I'd love to see Raito Yagami shitting around in public. Death Note is a shounen too, you know. I prefer to think of AG as a slightly more mature shounen than fucking Naruto. I mean, it does contain references to Mobile Suit Gundam & Amuro Ray, Macross, Hokuto no Ken, Great Teacher Onizuka (which is fuckwin, btw), Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (I think) and Aki Hoshino's huge oppai. Those are references that most shounen-only kids won't get. I mean, I bet there are many users even here who didn't get those references.

And this might come off as being an elitist asshole, I apologize already before I even say it, but I really can't take a guy who uses a Naruto emoticon seriously.
Someone actually thinks Goku is a good character? Best be trolling bro. He might be a respectable legend, but that doesn't mean he is a good character. He's one of the blandest characters ever.

windwaker

04-27-2009, 06:11 AM

Yes, those are the three core points why I can't stand him. Especially the last one. The wind worshipping got old in chapter 20. That's over 200 chapters ago. And it seems that the wind faggotry is growing stronger the closer we get to endgame.

And the theory about Storm road being about riding the wind isntead of just shooting it, isn't riding the wind the most basic technique of the Wing road? Because I think it is.

True, but i dont think thats a reason to dislike Ikki as a character ha.

And for the second part its true that riding the wind is basic for the wing road, but i dont know about being inside of a tornado.

But yea thats probably not it, its hard to think of anything that differentiates Hurricane from wing, especially anything valid enough for a whole new regalia to be necessary.

Reflector

04-27-2009, 10:38 AM

True, but i dont think thats a reason to dislike Ikki as a character ha.

And for the second part its true that riding the wind is basic for the wing road, but i dont know about being inside of a tornado.

But yea thats probably not it, its hard to think of anything that differentiates Hurricane from wing, especially anything valid enough for a whole new regalia to be necessary.
Well, each to their own, bit I think it's a good enough reason. I was always annoyed by the scroteboy's overwhelming attitude, but wouldn't call that really dislike. When he started plothaxxing worse than Jesus himself, I just gave up on trying to like him. Look at the hate Kira Yamato gets. It's not because he's a horrible character or annoying. His personality is seldom disliked, except for the Lacus pacifist worshipping. It's because he can't be beat. Ikki's like Jesus Yamato and his hax, plus the faggotry of shitturd Shinn. Not a good combo, I'm telling you.

I mean, when a character you don't like gets all the attention of plot and plotpowered enhancements, you start getting really pissed off. I remember being anti-Ikki by around chapter 40. Simca really knows how to fail a manga.

My favorite parts of the manga are when Ikki was hospitalized (less faggotry) and when the team started to distrust Ikki during Potemkin (I had been waiting so long for someone to call out on his asshole attitude).

windwaker

04-27-2009, 12:16 PM

Well, each to their own, bit I think it's a good enough reason. I was always annoyed by the scroteboy's overwhelming attitude, but wouldn't call that really dislike. When he started plothaxxing worse than Jesus himself, I just gave up on trying to like him. Look at the hate Kira Yamato gets. It's not because he's a horrible character or annoying. His personality is seldom disliked, except for the Lacus pacifist worshipping. It's because he can't be beat. Ikki's like Jesus Yamato and his hax, plus the faggotry of shitturd Shinn. Not a good combo, I'm telling you.

I mean, when a character you don't like gets all the attention of plot and plotpowered enhancements, you start getting really pissed off. I remember being anti-Ikki by around chapter 40. Simca really knows how to fail a manga.

My favorite parts of the manga are when Ikki was hospitalized (less faggotry) and when the team started to distrust Ikki during Potemkin (I had been waiting so long for someone to call out on his asshole attitude).

Ha i gotta admit, one of my favorite scenes is when Kazu basically says "Even if others praise you as sky king, you cant even beat an E class team...this is. our. re-al-i-ty."

Such ownage and ikki really did have it coming. But heres where that "ikki is perfect" hax comes in, the fact that it had been ikki's plan all along was sort of stupid.

But i think the only thing that keeps me from disliking Ikki is the fact that he really does have faith in, and care about his teammates. His faith in kazu has been shown a few times, and during the OSF match he had tremendous faith in Buccha, Agito, and Emiri.

Also, do you feel like Ikki has been brought down to earth a bit more? Its like ever since the sora betrayal, he's been a lot more of a team guy, and has basically been made a bit less jesusish/plothaxxish.

For instance,
-was shown to be about kazu's equal.
-during the OSF match didnt get much of a spotlight at all. (As in, the match was about agito, yayoi, buccha, and emily....ikki just led)
-loss against White wolves. (realizing he wants kururu's help)
-little things (Ikki sacrificing kazu, but then getting slugged in the face after the match. Ikki and everybody fighting as equals. Ikki using more smarts than windhax)

I think OG is working to make him a bit more tolerable, at least compared to how he was in the beginning when everybody was all "SKY KING SKY KING SKY KING."

Nee'lahn

04-27-2009, 01:00 PM

methinks I should have just called this the Ikki thread, but I was thinking of martine at the time, I don't like the stuff but I never failed to be intrigued by it XD.

I don't think their is anything wrong with getting worked up over a character (public arguments, protests and fights may be a tad extreme) But if the audience has some response to a character well I think some artists would rather that than apathy.

Its good to debate, getting the other view will at least for me not go about grumbling in an ignorant manner, after reading most of these posts I have a better opinion of him and some amusement. I like when there is some character analysis, if you can do it for novels than comic should be the same.

My reasons for being irritated with him being personality changes to fit the moment probably make him more interesting than a blant unchanging character and Windwaker is right he is more humble (cries more) so maybe O!G is trying to make him mature but still trying to keep the humour (a.ka his team beating him up if he steps out of line).

Carnevil

04-27-2009, 03:44 PM

Reflector

04-27-2009, 04:32 PM

windwaker

04-27-2009, 04:46 PM

* Someone who is annoying, bossy or embarrassing.
* Someone who is stupid, intellectually challenged or mentally deranged but less than clinically insane.
* Someone who is unintelligently lying or scamming.
* Someone who is arrogant, elitist or snobby.
* Someone whom you don't like.
* Someone who is socially inept.

Suppose ill play devils advocate.

Ikki isnt stupid, seeing how he's won a good portion of his battles by outsmarting the opponent and using the enviroment against them. He outsmarted Kiric for gods sake, no way is he stupid.

And he's not sociall inept since so many people like him ha, so hes gotta be doing something right.

And...he's not nearly as arrogant as before, and i think a majority of his arrogance is just a front.

Reflector

04-27-2009, 05:03 PM

Suppose ill play devils advocate.

Ikki isnt stupid, seeing how he's won a good portion of his battles by outsmarting the opponent and using the enviroment against them. He outsmarted Kiric for gods sake, no way is he stupid.

And he's not sociall inept since so many people like him ha, so hes gotta be doing something right.

And...he's not nearly as arrogant as before, and i think a majority of his arrogance is just a front.

And I'll counter with my own opinions.

He really is stupid. Him being smart is just plot induced wisdom. Kind of like Naruto, actually. That's just really bad writing. His character fluctuates too much. And look at how he acts outside of battle. The guy doesn't even know how to use a computer.

And I consider it to be social ineptitude if you can't take the norms and others feelings into consideration when you fuck around. And he shits in public.

And he might not be as arrogant as before, but that doesn't change the fact that he is still intolerably egoistical. I'm gonna be God, you're not worth as much as I am and all that shit. It might be a front, but it's still douchebaggery.

Nee'lahn

04-27-2009, 05:29 PM

Air was supposed to be like a gang sport thing, maybe thats why ikki's character isn't overly friendly, nice and typical manner of supporting.

I'm going to bring Kazu into this but in typical Manga style the Alpha protagontist Ikki is completely countered by Kazu the beta protagontist to create a balance, even down to their relationships which explains why Kazu is probably so popular, he's kinda realistic to counteract Ikki unrealistic-ness.

Ah thank you Reflector Flucuating is just how I'd describe him =3 I am not content!

windwaker

04-27-2009, 05:35 PM

And I'll counter with my own opinions.

He really is stupid. Him being smart is just plot induced wisdom. Kind of like Naruto, actually. That's just really bad writing. His character fluctuates too much. And look at how he acts outside of battle. The guy doesn't even know how to use a computer.

He is an AT genius, not an overall genius. Not everybody is a hands down broad genius, sometimes they shine only in specific areas. Some may call a football coach a genius because he comes up with amazing strategies, but at the same time the guy could have barely passed high school. It happens.

And I consider it to be social ineptitude if you can't take the norms and others feelings into consideration when you fuck around. And he shits in public.

When you gotta go, you gotta go. And sometimes you have to ignore the norms to get things done. As for not taking others feelings into account....meh, everybody does that now and then.

And he might not be as arrogant as before, but that doesn't change the fact that he is still intolerably egoistical. I'm gonna be God, you're not worth as much as I am and all that shit. It might be a front, but it's still douchebaggery.

I guess, but sometimes that kind of stuff is needed. Like after the sora battle. If Ikki was like, "I dont know how ill ever beat them, but ill give it a shot" it would have gotten no where near the reaction as the whole "they have fallen onto my path like small stones" line. He got everybody fired up by saying that, as his arrogant lines normally do.

Carnevil

04-27-2009, 06:09 PM

Suppose ill play devils advocate.

Ikki isnt stupid, seeing how he's won a good portion of his battles by outsmarting the opponent and using the enviroment against them. He outsmarted Kiric for gods sake, no way is he stupid.

And he's not sociall inept since so many people like him ha, so hes gotta be doing something right.

And...he's not nearly as arrogant as before, and i think a majority of his arrogance is just a front.

Kiric figured out his plan and got to Emily before she had time to jump. If it hadn't of been for massive amount of plotkai his plan would've failed. Don't ever use the OSF battle to try and prove Ikki's prowess. When your whole plan is based on plotkai you fail.
Of course people like him look at all the people in this manga half of them have some sort of mental or emotional problem. Add to that he's also Gary Stu you think OG is going to allow his self insert to be disliked. Hell NO.

Arrogance as a front nobody calls themselves a god as a front. Just look at his reaction when he saw Yoshi on top of that building.

Carnevil

04-27-2009, 06:13 PM

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, people (or institutions) who are also "special" or of high status.
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement
6. is interpersonally exploitative
7. lacks empathy
8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Reincarnation

04-27-2009, 06:29 PM

is it Narcissistic ???

lol i like this game...and its fucking hillarious how just about every description of the defintion fits ikki perfectly

seriously im almost certain that i could find a manga page confirming each deffinition LMAO

windwaker

04-27-2009, 07:19 PM

Kiric figured out his plan and got to Emily before she had time to jump. If it hadn't of been for massive amount of plotkai his plan would've failed. Don't ever use the OSF battle to try and prove Ikki's prowess. When your whole plan is based on plotkai you fail.
Of course people like him look at all the people in this manga half of them have some sort of mental or emotional problem. Add to that he's also Gary Stu you think OG is going to allow his self insert to be disliked. Hell NO.

Arrogance as a front nobody calls themselves a god as a front. Just look at his reaction when he saw Yoshi on top of that building.

What plotkai? the kiric wont hit girls thing? meh, a bit of luck then, it was still a good plan. And the behemoth plans and the buccha plans were very good.

Its part of his personality yea but its not like ikki really thinks that he can crush sora like a small stone, or is really genuinely pissed off that yoshi is doing something cool.

I dont really mind ikki's arrogance talk because its rarely used in serious situations, and when it is its either to hype everybody up or he backs it up.

Overall i think his good qualities outweigh his bad by quite a bit.

Waking_Dreamer

04-27-2009, 07:26 PM

About Ikki's arrogance and seeming god complex...I actually dont really take offense by it.

I remember a while back there was a debate between some posters...cant remember who but they were talking about his Confidence vs Arrogance.

In the end one just didnt see that much of a problem with Ikkis attitude. He stated he himself was a confident person and Ikk's talk about himself wouldnt really phase him at all. If he were to meet Ikki in person he believed they would get along well with each other. So I guess OG construction of Ikki do actually appeal to some RL people.

From a distance yea it would seem his douchy but I can imagine If I was in his circles of friends and he was taking himself and all that crap I got no problem sticking my finger up at him and laughingly say, "yea sure...whatever you reckon...dumbass" But that would be it. Id continue on with my life...I wouldnt like be cursing under my breath for the rest of the day...or hold some kind of grudge.

Yes all this wind worshiping has got many of you shits and pisses, but i dont give a second though about those worshipers. In his high school friends dynamics they dont seem to care either. Like when he is looking for place to stay after leaving Ringo...they talk shit to Ikki for his douchbaggery etc. but in the end Kazu himself doesnt seem to mind.

If Kazu's got no problem with it...I got no problem with it.

Carnevil

04-27-2009, 07:38 PM

What plotkai? the kiric wont hit girls thing? meh, a bit of luck then, it was still a good plan. And the behemoth plans and the buccha plans were very good.

Umm gee how about the Giant Head monster or the magical healing powers of Yayoi? Agito should've been removed with the hit he took. But apparently all you need is to have some chick get naked and you get fully healed and more powerful. Add to the fact that is was sheer dumb luck that Sora or Kiric wasn't the panther.

windwaker

04-27-2009, 08:27 PM

Umm gee how about the Giant Head monster or the magical healing powers of Yayoi? Agito should've been removed with the hit he took. But apparently all you need is to have some chick get naked and you get fully healed and more powerful. Add to the fact that is was sheer dumb luck that Sora or Kiric wasn't the panther.

Duh. Thats been established for a while ha.

I do agree the talking heads, or rather, the whole environment was very odd.

Xemnas

04-28-2009, 12:15 PM

@WAking Dreamer, i remember that debate...i think i was in it...

Here's why Ikki doesn't bug me..it has to do with my love of Pscyh...i think im looking into this WAY too much but...lets take a look at the circumstances of Ikki's life

-He's practically an orphan
-He doesn't know who his parents are, and is in a house with people who are "real" Family

This angle reminds of Sasuke's sad backstory...the guys vies for his dads attention and acceptance...finally gets it..and then his dad is murdered before the bond got a chance to take off...this was before the kid hit double digits..but of course no one looks at those angles

-He lived somewhat impoverished (couldn't go on school trips because he didn't have the money)
-No immediate male role models, no males period actually, his idea of what it takes to be a man is based off of whatever he read in a manga or saw on tv, first real older Male he interacts with is Sora..and we saw how that turned out
-Lives in an all female houslehold, most adolescent boys with single moms tend to try to be the man since there is none
-He has no say in the household due to mom and dad (Mikan and Rika respectively)
-Doesn't really have any outlets for his frustration except for AT's
-He's 15, most adolescent psychologists view adolescents as another fucking species..they have a penchant for feeling grandiose and are ego-centric..they think they are invincible (ie skateboarding with out pads, unprotected sex, teen driving accidents)
-He's 15 get ridiculous amounts of praise on top of a personality that isn't real
-His real personality has been shown about 3 or 4 times in the series
-When he let Kazu and Onigiri push him around..until they threw his AT's out the window and proceeded to beat the shit out of them
-When he played AT football and really needed time to think
-Crying when Yoshi died
-Wanting to quit AT's

All in all he should actually be MORE Fucked up than he already is because he's not so bad

The rest of his instances are him putting on a front...a leader must be strong...showing emotions tells the others it's okay to be coward...which is why Yoshi had to lecture his ass from the grave when he cried like that...some of the things he says are really fucked up forms of encouragement or giving the others the idea that their leader is impregnable (telling Agito to fight Lind himself so he wont have to if the time comes)

His dumb moments are because this is a shonen with comedy as a subgenre..it's just that O!G's sense of humor sucks (shitting in public will NEVER EVER NEVER EVER be funny), i don't consider his intelligent wins to be plot hax, he is shown to practice out of his ass and has a talent for the trick paths, he went into that Buccha fight with a plan..albeit a horrendous one, against Cyclops he had a plan and a good one that almost worked

I can do one for Kazu which explains why i don't like him all that much

Epic_Rider

04-28-2009, 01:21 PM

Well said, Xemnas, well said you said all the things I was already going to say about Ikki's psychological state. In fact you are the first person to actually notice those 4 events. A truly excellent analysis.

I was talking with a friend and I came up with a theory "In manga, all characters who are talented rookies who show a accelerated increase in skill and ability in a certain skill set without a large amount of angst will be bashed in online forums"

Please comment on this, I would really like to hear some responses.

Nee'lahn

04-28-2009, 01:29 PM

I can do one for Kazu which explains why i don't like him all that much

Oh please do, (in the Kazu thread it'll cause a storm =P)

Very good arguments on the pro Ikki side, but I guess it all comes down to what people like and it is actually possible to be 'friends' and not actually like them- trust me from the conversations I hear on the bus people swear and mutter under there breathe alot about their unpleasant friends. But that those that are closest to Ikki can beat him up/point out his faults to his face goes back to the age old thing in Air Gear world people actually like Ikki. But theres that fluctuating thing because mixed with all the bad qualities he had moments of politeness and decency and it is a wonder are most of his bad qualities due to a poor attempt at making him funny or ridiculous that just didn't work?

Xemnas

04-28-2009, 01:45 PM

Oh please do, (in the Kazu thread it'll cause a storm =P)

Very good arguments on the pro Ikki side, but I guess it all comes down to what people like and it is actually possible to be 'friends' and not actually like them- trust me from the conversations I hear on the bus people swear and mutter under there breathe alot about their unpleasant friends. But that those that are closest to Ikki can beat him up/point out his faults to his face goes back to the age old thing in Air Gear world people actually like Ikki. But theres that fluctuating thing because mixed with all the bad qualities he had moments of politeness and decency and it is a wonder are most of his bad qualities due to a poor attempt at making him funny or ridiculous that just didn't work?

pretty much, O!G likes to make him ridiculously arrogant at times..and vulgar...like i said i hate when Ikki takes dumps in public....it's just not funny

Then again, we must understand, we are not the target Audience, the Japanese are...but i don't think that's enough of a justification...

Now i can do one for Kazu but it'll be short

Kazu has always felt as though he was in Ikki's shadow, he thinks of Ikki as his hero and source of strength...we've all had friends we felt were invincible..i have one like that so i can relate

When Ikki is fucking outright embarrased by the Skull Saders...Kazu and Onigiri lose their respect, they even push him around because that invincible Aura was shattered

But when the AT thing started...so did the nut riding...it's nothing Kazu can do..Ikki's affinity for the wind has been present since the kid was about, Kazu's AT skills are unrecognized, and he doesn't want to make them recognize Ikki is boastful and loves to show off, it makes his achievements more widespread than Kazu's but it's been proven that Ikki practices, Kazu does to and Ikki is the only one to let it be known

Ikki with all his faux narcissism has actually tried to let Kazu shine..Kazu just chooses not to take the opportunity..and this is why i don't like him that much:

He's content with being Ikki's sidekick...even when Ikki gives him the floor (during their bout)

Kazu had the better homelike...in some cases the opposite of Ikki but he turned out how Ikki should have turned out given his backstory, shy and modest, letting Ikki push him around as a kid was probably the cause of much of this because Ikki tried to hide his apprehensions about his home life, Kazu has none to hide so can't really realize that Ikki envies him...had he realized that the relationship would be much more even

Agito stands out because Agito knows he's good, the same for Ikki...but Kazu refuses to do so whether this is on purpose or not leads to be seen

I really thought i would like Kazu again after the Ikki match, i thought he'd gotten over the idea that Ikki was invincible but he didn't he returned to his old ways..but there are a few subtle differences in his character, he stll has a never say die attitude but the issue is that it's only there when ikki is there, when Ikki was in the hospital Kazu's confidence was down because he thinks of himself as a 4 foot wall and Ikki and Agito are 8 foot walls..w/o both the walls he assumed he'd be toppled, he does his best knowing Ikki can pick up any pieces he leaves

This type of reliance annoys me..I'm the oldest of 3 siblings so I'm used to people relying on me to make decisions and choices as opposed to letting some one do them for me..and on that note..i think i'll stop

Nee'lahn

04-28-2009, 02:38 PM

To Xemnas (not quoting since its a big post and just above this one) With the Ikki being jealous of Kazu probably explains why he bullies him when he's young and it does say in the ikki vs Kazu match that Ikki just can't stand to be beaten so Kazu was actually trying to beat him its just Ikki over powered him and I do think they are on more even ground than before, who chases after the president in Emiri's body with Ikki? (Althought that maybe becuase he was a translator or just for more EmirixKazu) But Ikki was jealous of Kazu getting the hang of a move before he could. (Yeah but at the start of the manga it wasn't obvious that Onigiri or Kazu would be major characters and the skull saders were threatening their families and Kazu always did believe in him but admittedly Kazu and Onirigi acted cowardly no two ways about it.)

You get the impression Ikki is caught between helping his friends do their best but still wanting to be the best (may have something to do with his deprived background or need to prove his manhood since he gets beat up by girls at home).

His character is set up be the one everyone relies on, look at Naruto (sorry for the comparison but its the best i can do) he's like 15/16 and a whole villiage expects him to take on the evil guy, so its a typical thing at the end of the day people are going to rely on the main character, even Agito to some extent as started to rely on Ikki a tad. I'll admit I like Buccha because he is one of the few characters that doesn't rely on Ikki and frequently challenges him. It has shifted slightly its now the team all rely on each other so Ikki's pedalstal has got lower its just he's the leader so is expected to give direction, too many cooks spil the broth and all that jazz.

Xemnas

04-28-2009, 02:58 PM

Are you agrreeing or disagreeing? or just your own input? either way i agree...but the reason you shouldn't used Naruto is because AG is set in a modern setting....and in the US there are kids with Ikki's background that either act like him or Kazu, it's what i based my thoughts on

Reflector

04-28-2009, 03:36 PM

I'm sorry, Xemnas, but everything you listed sound all snazzy, but it isn't really a big deal. It's not like Ikki has had an especially harsh childhood. Sure, he's an orphan, but he's lived with the Noyamanos for as long as he can remember, and they're a good family. Mentioning crap like no outlets for aggression are really overanalysing his situation.

You said he should be fucked up with his past. I don't think so. His past has some bad parts about it, but all in all, it's not a "dark past". Actually, compared to most anime characters, Ikki has a rather good and happy past.

And IMO comparing to Naruto is stupid in all situations. Naruto's characterization is really bad. They're all just textbook cases of different cliches.

And you know why Kazu's so shy? Because he had to take shit from Ikki all his life. "Lol I hid your shoes. Here, take some poop, Fag, you're not worth as much as me." What a fucking douche. Sure, they were best friend, but it's obvious that a huge part of his inferiority complex stems from the douchebaggery Ikki pulled off.
Also, why do you think those 4 instances are Ikki's true nature? Because their the only ones where he isn't an annoying ass (Well, the Yoshi thing was hilariously bad)? I think he's genuinely a bigshot assturd, who gets upset when things don't go his way, and that's when your theory of Ikki's "true nature" comes in. He's just sad during those moments, not letting out his gentle true personality.

Well said, Xemnas, well said you said all the things I was already going to say about Ikki's psychological state. In fact you are the first person to actually notice those 4 events. A truly excellent analysis.

I was talking with a friend and I came up with a theory "In manga, all characters who are talented rookies who show a accelerated increase in skill and ability in a certain skill set without a large amount of angst will be bashed in online forums"

Please comment on this, I would really like to hear some responses.
All I can say to you is quit reading fucking Shonen Jump. Perhaps you'll see for yourself then. Actually I take that back. Read something else than goddamn Naruto or Bleach. One Piece and Bakuman have likable main characters. Reborn, while being a total mess, doesn't have an annoying main character.
Mx0 has a fucking badass main character, and Deadman Wonderland's main character is a slight pussy, but has spurts of manliness at times. Mirai Nikki, too.
Or check out High school of the Dead. The man character is a real, serious leader, unlike Ikki who's an asshole.
Read Busou Renkin. Or watch. WOAH WHOO OH-AH, WOAH WHOO OH-AH, DA DA DA DA DA DAA Fuck yes.

And check out any Gundam except for Seed (not liked) and 08th MS team (not noob). You'll have the exact same situation as you described, BUT the character won't be hated. Actually, Loran, Kamille, Amuro & Garrod are awesome.

Or play a Type-Moon work.

Seriously, before spouting bullshit like that, gain some experience and/or knowlege first. Jesus.

Nee'lahn

04-28-2009, 03:52 PM

Lets see what Manga read/have read, Black cat, Naturo, Bleach, Loveless,Tsubasa Resevoir Chronicles, VampireKnight, XXXHolic, Good witch of the West, Sword of Shibito, Full Moon, Some moon phase, some Sergent Frog, Fruits basket, Mars, some chapters of BousenRenin- need to read some more when I have time. Anime I've watched, Mushrombom, Escaflowne, FMA, Beyblade, Ouran high school host club, (Digimon and pokemon), Megabots, Flint the Time detective etc...these I can remember but its safe to say I don't have the experience you speak of XD and this may explain why i keep referring to the dreaded naruto, its the closest I have =( (well except Bleach but ...)

Xemnas

04-28-2009, 03:53 PM

@ Reflector...lol i mentioned im most likely overanlysing the situation because im just in love with Psychology, i had a paper a few semesters ago where a professor said to use a fictional character and explain their psychological disorders...i used Cloud Strife because he as a fuckload of issues, after doing that i figured that taking literraly EVERYTHING into an account you realize just how fucked up some of these characters are

When i watched the anime and read the AG manga...i thought to myself...hey this kid has no parents..and has women telling him what to do all his life...this can't end well

This may stem from the fact that I've had both parents since birth...and have all around lived a spoiled sheltered otherwise textbook life..so things of this nature are alien to me...but i've met people with similar backgrounds to Ikki and some of them are just like him

And i don't know..i can't take Ikki arguments seriously because they lead to what a "superior" character Kazu is and i just can't understand why...it's not like Ikki's my favorite so I'm no fanboy...thats split somewhere between Agito/Aeon/Sora

And no matter how many times i reread this manga (im on my 3rd complete read over) i just don't find Ikki as annoying as some make him out to be...i personally feel it's O!G fault for trying too hard to be funny at ikki's expense, if i were as passionate about this as i am say...Tennis or Video Games (Tales>FF btw) then i would get annoyed by all the bashing but like i say im not invested enough to really hate a fictional character i just love to enjoy the pretty art

The words used to decribe Ikki at times make it so that i forget were discussing a fictional character it's like discussing a politician (Epic lulz@ Governor Patterson)...there seems to be some deep rooted hate..like he reminds someone of someone they met because there are plenty of people who also use Ikki's Faux personality

who gets upset when things don't go his way

He's 15...it's pretty much expected

As for your other point-

Yes god damnit!! people need to stop with the Naruto and Bleach stuff...it's not even because it's mainstream because so is one piece and thats just weeks after weeks of win win and WIN

I used to really be into those two series..when i was about 15-16...I'm 19 now and i don't take those seriously at all, i just read them for the art (kishimoto can come up with some nice pics, and Bleach...well im just Lusting over Neliel)

AG has it's issues but i can get by them...but the shit that's happening in bleach is atrocious to read...the only good thing recently was Lucifer posing as a Hollow and Hitsugaya getting owned

Speaking of Ice boy...he's someone i HATE HATE HATE, can stand him he does nothing...but i digress

Also...Why is Reborn A mess? im only up to immiediatley after the XanXus ring fight

Reflector

04-28-2009, 04:16 PM

@ Reflector...lol i mentioned im most likely overanlysing the situation because im just in love with Psychology, i had a paper a few semesters ago where a professor said to use a fictional character and explain their psychological disorders...i used Cloud Strife because he as a fuckload of issues, after doing that i figured that taking literraly EVERYTHING into an account you realize just how fucked up some of these characters are

And no matter how many times i reread this manga (im on my 3rd complete read over) i just don't find Ikki as annoying as some make him out to be...i personally feel it's O!G fault for trying too hard to be funny at ikki's expense, if i were as passionate about this as i am say...Tennis or Video Games (Tales>FF btw) then i would get annoyed by all the bashing but like i say im not invested enough to really hate a fictional character i just love to enjoy the pretty art

The words used to decribe Ikki at times make it so that i forget were discussing a fictional character it's like discussing a politician (Epic lulz@ Governor Patterson)...there seems to be some deep rooted hate..like he reminds someone of someone they met because there are plenty of people who also use Ikki's Faux personality

He's 15...it's pretty much expected

As for your other point-

Yes god damnit!! people need to stop with the Naruto and Bleach stuff...it's not even because it's mainstream because so is one piece and thats just weeks after weeks of win win and WIN

I used to really be into those two series..when i was about 15-16...I'm 19 now and i don't take those seriously at all, i just read them for the art (kishimoto can come up with some nice pics, and Bleach...well im just Lusting over Neliel)

AG has it's issues but i can get by them...but the shit that's happening in bleach is atrocious to read...the only good thing recently was Lucifer posing as a Hollow and Hitsugaya getting owned

Speaking of Ice boy...he's someone i HATE HATE HATE, can stand him he does nothing...but i digress

Also...Why is Reborn A mess? im only up to immiediatley after the XanXus ring fight
Well, first I'll tell you, that if you ever have one of those assignments again, there's always Type-Moon waiting. Both Shiki and Shirou have issues, Shirou more so. He's really Cloud level cracked. But sadly, that didn't show in the anime, and only comes to light in the second and third playthrough (UBW & HF paths).

And FF > all, dude. Except perhaps Persona 4.

And well, I've kinda hit a wall here. Don't have anything more to say about Ikki. I just dislike his guts, plot hax, bad manners and the way OG is trying to force feed us him. With less hax & force feeding, I could probably tolerate him, if I tried hard enough.
OG really did the same thing with Nagi. But he failed there too. Nagi probably doesn't have a single fan. And if he does, I doubt those fans have very good taste. This probably sounds like assholery on my part, but it's true. Nagi's that shitty.

I've dropped Naruto. Bleach, well... I'm waiting for Ishida & Urahara. If they appear, I'll read it. Otherwise I'll skip. And fuck that captain Ice-Shota. Worst fanwank character in ages.

Reborn was okay as a gag manga, and the Mukuro arc was pretty good at ordinary shounen standards, I rather liked the tournament arc about the rings (that's where you are, right?). But the next arc just has the shit hit the fan. It all comes crashing down with those fucking boxes and spirit flames and future and yeah it turns pretty bad.

Xemnas

04-28-2009, 05:13 PM

Well, first I'll tell you, that if you ever have one of those assignments again, there's always Type-Moon waiting. Both Shiki and Shirou have issues, Shirou more so. He's really Cloud level cracked. But sadly, that didn't show in the anime, and only comes to light in the second and third playthrough (UBW & HF paths).

And FF > all, dude. Except perhaps Persona 4.

Don't want to start a flamewar so i'll politely agree to disagree that FF> all..i used to be that way...then played the gatewat drug known as SO3..started lusting for Action RPGs and now im a tales fanboy

As for persona..im only 11 hours in, just saved Yukiko but that game is so fucking epic i can't even find the words to describe it..it's a japan lovers wetdream in some ways

And well, I've kinda hit a wall here. Don't have anything more to say about Ikki. I just dislike his guts, plot hax, bad manners and the way OG is trying to force feed us him. With less hax & force feeding, I could probably tolerate him, if I tried hard enough.
OG really did the same thing with Nagi. But he failed there too. Nagi probably doesn't have a single fan. And if he does, I doubt those fans have very good taste. This probably sounds like assholery on my part, but it's true. Nagi's that shitty.

It's cool it's what i really like about this forum, everyone seems to be okay with one anothers opinions, the fact that we can curse makes us come off harsh at times but it's all in the spirit of fun, and who doesn't love a good debate/discussion (i feel the two are very different because right now were having a discussion but there are others who feel they are the same)

And i read some random tenten chapters...i read Maya VS this big ugly dude (in the 80's i think) some boxing guy fighting someone...looked liek AG w/o the roller blades and there are an assload of expys (well technically the AG char's are the expy's) and it made no sense to me...

then unfortunately i decided to read a more recent chapter...121...and happened to see bob puttin' it one someone..i proceeded to leave and clear my history:)

I've dropped Naruto. Bleach, well... I'm waiting for Ishida & Urahara. If they appear, I'll read it. Otherwise I'll skip. And fuck that captain Ice-Shota. Worst fanwank character in ages.

I like to finish what i start...and i like the naruto video games. it's not too troublesome to follow, the anime however i gave up on at shippuden 50 and Bleach 160 something

Reborn was okay as a gag manga, and the Mukuro arc was pretty good at ordinary shounen standards, I rather liked the tournament arc about the rings (that's where you are, right?). But the next arc just has the shit hit the fan. It all comes crashing down with those fucking boxes and spirit flames and future and yeah it turns pretty bad.

You mean the future arc? yea my little brother was telling me about that..time travel is messy authors should stay the fuck away if they don't have a grasp of the concept

I liked the ring arc too because Tsuna and Xanxas had a domination trade type of battle which i just love

Carnevil

04-28-2009, 06:46 PM

Xemnas made me realize that everybody in this manga is an orphan. Seriously has anybody seen the parents of the kids who should have them?

Xemnas

04-28-2009, 06:56 PM

Xemnas made me realize that everybody in this manga is an orphan. Seriously has anybody seen the parents of the kids who should have them?

Lol i did notice this but never brought it up because there was an explanation behind it (Kazu's parents overseas raised by sister i believe, and Onigiri's dad was Ikki's employer)

But yea...they are orphans

It's what i like to emotional insurance. it works for fantasy stories, RPGS and most shonen manga...for the character to go on this ridiculous journey he needs grit the protagonist is usual a kid..kids are attached what do you do? you off his attachment before his journey that usually why the villaige the protagonist lived in gets destroyed

For examples see - Roddick Farence, Most of the AG cast to an extent, Emil Castagnier etc

Also to reflecter - I hate Nagi from what i've read in TenTen so far

Epic_Rider

04-28-2009, 07:17 PM

windwaker

04-28-2009, 08:14 PM

I've dropped Naruto. Bleach, well... I'm waiting for Ishida & Urahara. If they appear, I'll read it. Otherwise I'll skip. And fuck that captain Ice-Shota. Worst fanwank character in ages.

Meh, naruto is pretty decent right now. Naruto has stopped being a side character in his own manga, and has become pretty badass (as far as that manga goes i mean) but at the same time he's not wtfpwning everybody.

Im actually really surprised how much i like the current arc. I mean yea naruto is one of my favorite characters among the "mains" but just him being badass wouldnt be enough for me to like it. That and the fact that one could argue that he hasnt been badass (fighting wise) ha.

Truthfully though, if i was the writer for naruto i would piss a lot of people off, since within 3 or 4 chapters i would have gone back and done a Genma Gaiden with Genma, raidou, and shizune on a team led by either Dan or Hizashi, during the last war.

And yea, i checked out bleach a few weeks ago. Ishida did something badass, it was nice how that worked out, since i havent glanced at it since ha.

it's not even because it's mainstream because so is one piece and thats just weeks after weeks of win win and WIN

Is there something wrong with me if i dont really like One piece? I dunno, its just too arc based for me. I also never could get into hunter x hunter either.

But as far as consistency win goes....i have to give that title to Fulll metal aclhemist.

Xemnas

04-28-2009, 08:26 PM

Is there something wrong with me if i dont really like One piece?

Obviously Blasphemy >_>

kidding, not it's quite alright, it is rare thought...like someone not liking Kazu but it happens

What i admire about Oda was that he didn't try to win people over with pretty art, his story is what makes it what it is i agree it's too arc based in a sense...because my one piece reading is screwed up, i read everything up to the davyback games arc, stopped started at the CP9 arc, stopped started again at the supernova's arc. stopped started when ms fanservice boa hancock was introduced..so im missing entire story arcs

windwaker

04-28-2009, 10:04 PM

Obviously Blasphemy >_>

kidding, not it's quite alright, it is rare thought...like someone not liking Kazu but it happens

What i admire about Oda was that he didn't try to win people over with pretty art, his story is what makes it what it is i agree it's too arc based in a sense...because my one piece reading is screwed up, i read everything up to the davyback games arc, stopped started at the CP9 arc, stopped started again at the supernova's arc. stopped started when ms fanservice boa hancock was introduced..so im missing entire story arcs

I mean, i like One piece, when its going. CP9/Eines lobby? Awesome. Tenryubito arc with luffy and those two other captains being total badasses? Crazy awesome And recently its been pretty cool. But when theres a lull ill just forget about it.

And i wouldnt say its his story that wins people over so much as its his characters.

Xemnas

04-28-2009, 11:21 PM

I mean, i like One piece, when its going. CP9/Eines lobby? Awesome. Tenryubito arc with luffy and those two other captains being total badasses? Crazy awesome And recently its been pretty cool. But when theres a lull ill just forget about it.

And i wouldnt say its his story that wins people over so much as its his characters.

Characters drive the story, FFVII would have been nothing w/o Cloud

windwaker

04-29-2009, 01:10 AM

Characters drive the story, FFVII would have been nothing w/o Cloud

Yea. But stories can be good enough to make up for weaker characters, just like characters can make up for weaker stories....to a certain degree.

Although i admit ill put up more with a weaker story with great characters (COUGH AIR GEAR COUGH) then a strong story with weak characters.

kirk

04-29-2009, 01:25 AM

Characters drive the story, FFVII would have been nothing w/o Cloud

LOL what are you trying to get at? You just chose a game with a story centered on the main char and say it's nothing without him? Ofcourse, The story was made to revolve around him =/

Seriously, Ikki's past isn't bad at all. His family isn't even considered bad. He's the bully so his school life isn't bad either.I really don't see anything bad about his life =/

Can't say anything about tales, but imo SO > FF unless XIII redeems the series. SO4 looks wtfawesome that I'm tempted to get that rrod360 for just that one game. I don't have a ps2, so i can't really relate much there as well haha my pc isn't good enough to play SO3 T_T fuck :( oh well, I just hope it plays melty blood actress again with 0 lag and i'm happy xD

I don't hate ikki, Neither do I like him. There's nothing really to love about him that makes up for what to hate about him. Atleast for me, he seems to be just the generic shounen hero that's been overused since about a decade ago?

As for kazu, I never knew he'd even have the time to shine. I really don't like his personality. And being bullied doesn't make you have an inferiority complex over a person, It depends on the person itself. Some get those "I will surpass you one day and get back at you" and some get those "I'm forever his shadow" like kazu.

Kurisu

04-29-2009, 02:08 AM

Well I don't agree with everything everyone said, but everyone does have a point and there intitled to there opinion. I personally like Ikki, He's got a lot of traits witch I admire and I do see how he can be crude but it's comic relief, even if it is slap stick. And kazu is great the would be friend who wants to follow the hero, then want's to surpass him, only to find a even greater power inside him, And possibly be a king in his own respect. Thats awsome in my book. Well later,

Reflector

04-29-2009, 10:07 AM

Well Reflector perhaps you didn't understand what I said but in the majority of those manga you qouted the main character was a badass or had serious angst which a serious part of their characterization. Also what i said was that characters of the type I specified are often bashed in online forums. You are the perfect example of that
...You haven't checked a single one of the shows I mentioned, have you? Only Kamille has angst issues of the characters I mentioned. They are by no means pre-set badasses. They were exactly what you described: "characters who are talented rookies who show a accelerated increase in skill and ability in a certain skill set without a large amount of angst". Oh my god, your ignorance is horrible.

Honestly, could you tell me why you think Kazuki from Busou Renkin, Ganta from Deadman Wonderland, Yukki from Mirai Nikki, Shirou from F/SN, Takashi from High School of the Dead, Amuro & Garrod & Loran from various Gundams Taiga from Mx0 and Shujin & Saiko from Bakuman are angsty or instant badasses?

You know why I bash Ikki, Naruto, & Ichigo? Not because of their similarities. I dislike Ikki for being such a haxed douche motherfucker. Naruto's personality incredibly bland nowadays, his fights follow the same pattern (repetitive), and his stupid moments aren't funny. Also, way too hung up on Sasuke. Ichigo, well... He never had a personality to begin with ("I must protect" is not a personality) and the way he haxxes shit with his plotkai dark side. Seriously, why do every shounen protagonist have to have that fucking dark side? It's lame as hell. Well, at least OG did something right with Ikki. Can't say the same about Nagi though, he failed this one too.

Oh, and by the way. I fucking hate emo characters. They're such an eyesore.

Meh, naruto is pretty decent right now. Naruto has stopped being a side character in his own manga, and has become pretty badass (as far as that manga goes i mean) but at the same time he's not wtfpwning everybody.

Im actually really surprised how much i like the current arc. I mean yea naruto is one of my favorite characters among the "mains" but just him being badass wouldnt be enough for me to like it. That and the fact that one could argue that he hasnt been badass (fighting wise) ha.

Naruto is smacking Pain around. How's that not wtfpwning? The power inconsistencies and one-sided characters really kill it. I remember back in the day when Naruto had a personality. SASUKE SASUKE MY FRIEND SASUKE BAAAWWW is not character development, it's Flanderization (You'll probably know this term, Xemnas). Also, the art is deterioting really fast. It looks like a coloring book. And the secondary main character (who used to be main characte at one time) is the shittiest character ever made. He's the biggest Mary-Sue ever, total Kishi self-insert. And he's a douchebag.
Well, it's not as low as Bleach, but Bleach is so bad it's hilarious at times. I have great fun reading summaries of the chapters in weekly Bleach threads. Sounds like the fanfiction of a 12 year old.

And OP is a really entertaining manga. That's really the most important. It might not be "good", with a shallow plot and such, put Oda knows how to entertain the audience. That's what puts OP so much over Kishi's and TITe Kubo's works. Just like how Geass is. I know the plot is very thinly weaved, nothing makes sense and the second season was a total trainwreck, but it was hilariously entertaining, which scores it among my top shows.

..So, yeah, to stay on topic: I don't like Ikki. Too much plot hax, dick-riding, force feeding and douchebaggery for my tastes.

Epic_Rider

04-29-2009, 11:41 AM

Reflector

04-29-2009, 01:22 PM

Reflector in regards to Ganta from Deadman Wonderland well if someone shows up and kills off all your classmates and gets you blamed for it and that's not angsty, well maybe I need to check my definition again. But i will agree that Kazuki from Buso Renkin does fit my description and I haven't seen a lot of bashing of him so maybe there are exceptions.

Also do you even know what hax means? I am going to assume you mean Deux Ex Machina which is a literary term referring to a plot device in which a person or thing appears suddenly and unexpectedly to provide a contrived solution to an unsolvable problem. I keep reading the manga and I see nothing like that with the possible exception of when Kururu came to help him which was not sudden or unexpected since she was seen looking for Ikki earlier or when he became Storm King which was not contrived since he was already qualified to be a King. If you have another definition of hax please share it.

And what the hell is wrong with Naruto's character? He has been growing a lot lately what with all the moral problems he has been facing about the nature of war and peace and about the nature of Mutually Assured Destructon and it's moral implications (windwaker, you will probably know what I am talking about) bashing the fact that he cares about his friend is just lame, really. Bleach is Bleach even if it does get a bit ridiculous at times it is still a good manga and Ichigo is still a good character. I agree about One Piece it really is amusing if not good.

Ganta has a backstory full of drama, I agree, but he isn't angsty at all. He's more of a wimp and good kid who tries his best. He's not one of those lone wolf emo bishie fags. And Kazuki isn't bashed is because he, unlike thousands other shounen leads, know how to act around women and isn't a total dickhead or idiot. Honestly, the cliche of a shounen hero not noticing the advances of the love interest is fucking old, and was never funny.

Ah, don't start this stupid debate. It's just as stupid as the moe debate. You know full well what plot hax means. Doing something you shouldn't be able to do only because the plot needs/writer wants it. And Ikki was full of it ever since chapter 1, FFS. Loved by the motherfucking wind. Of course, all shounen leads have this, but Ikki became Genesis' number one promising future star in such a fucking unbelievable way, that it isn't even funny. Storm King was 100% plot haxxage. How can they just create a new road and make it legitimate like that? Because it's Ikki, that's why. Kazu didn't get Inferno road and Agito didn't get Slasher Road when thet were in similar situations. Oh, and apparently the Storm Road will be an advantage over the other teams, because they don't know about the new road. Hey, I have a good idea! Let's give all Koga members new roads. It looked pretty easy when Ikki got one. Little effort, huge gain. SO yeah, Destruction road, Shit road and Best female in series road to Koga.

And Naruto's personality disappeared after part 1. All he does nowadays is baww after his yaoi buddy. Nobody's bashing the fact that he cares about his friends, it's just sad that his character has regressed from the occasionally fun character from part 1 to this onesided moralfaggy yaoibait.

And while I don't read actively Naruto, I see every week a scan or few in various Naruto threads on the site I hang out at (which shall remain unnamed), and this moral crap you speak of is VERY poorly executed. I mean, suddenly being all friendly to Pain and "I want to hear his backstory!" is just fail. I mean, the guy destroyed the whole city (I think he did. Not sure though.), killed J-man, Kakashi and that filler chick who hangs out with Mrs. Jugs. Suddenly wanting to hear his end of the story is just pathetically moralfaggy and Kishi trying (and failing in) to bring politics to Naruto.

Really, if you like Naruto, I won't complain. Everyone has their own tastes. My NAruto bashing is just my own opinion. I'm a huge Type-Moon fanboy and a mechaphile, but those interests aren't really appreciated here at all (Lolporn&wallsoftext and stupid tincans). So yeah.

And Bleach... The best things I can say are: THE NUMBERS! THEY GO FROM 0-9! & KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN

And Kubo is one lazy ass fucker. The words A HEART written on a blank page, wow. Also, no backgrounds. EVER.

Epic_Rider

04-29-2009, 03:59 PM

Reflector

04-29-2009, 05:17 PM

Um what you said about plothax is exactly what I said and you didn't even bother to answer to what I said about what Ikki does that is considered hax.If you say that Ikki being loved by te wind is plothax then any character that has any typeof natural talent at all is plothax then. Please try to reason logically. Agito and Kazu did not get new Roads because they already have Roads that they are supposed to be Kings of and like the old guy said the Wing Road never really suited him from the start and he was already qualified to be a King since he ca use a Regalia's Infinity Atmosphere.it wasn't contrived that is he didn't instantly gain the ability to use Infinity Atmosphere so it doesn't count as plothax, get it?

And the whole point of what Kishimoto is doing is to show that it would be easy to just kill Pain outright but then you won't ever gain peace that way since someone is goig to want revenge eventually and that is going to start the whole cycle all over again.Naruto right now is about him trying to find a new solution to the problem if that's "moralfaggy" in your opinion okay then to each their own. And some people call what Kubo does minimalist. Here look it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimalism

Just wanted to say that.

Didn't bother to answer? I gave you a rant about the fucking Storm Road. Wasn't suited to the wing road my ass. How was he not suited to it? Because it's "narrow"? What the hell is that supposed to mean? That was plotkai right there. You make him the King despite not having any right to be one. Sora is a better King for the Wing road, which is what Ikki uses right now. Or do you have some secret theory about how the Storm road is different from it? Because from what I can see, ther is no god damn difference. Ikki just can't be a normal rider like the others, so OG bullshits some random crap to make his Gary Stu self-insert look better.

And loved by the wind. Yes, every shounen lead has a natural talent, but Ikki's is so bullshittingly huge that it isn't even funny. He was already crowned as the next candidate for Sky King in chapter 5. There aren't many manga or anime, where the development of the main character is that shittily done. And Sky King is apparently the best and perfect rider. That scrote had been riding for three days, and suddenly he's the best candidate for the purest and best rider, for fucks sake. Not plothax? What the fuck, dude?

And if you call Kubo's blank backgrounds minimalism, well... That's just sad. All I can say is: Cool (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/22) Story, (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/13) Bro. (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/354/04) Especially the third link. Go master artist Kubo.

Kubo is a lazy fuck, not some kind of artistic genius revolutionizing manga. He probably introduced Hueco Mexico just so he wouldn't have to draw anything but those snazzy pillars. He used to do backgrounds back in the good days of Bleach (like during Byakuya's Unlimited Blade Works, that was one awesome background). But Kubo's such a pimp that he doesn't have to take shit from anyone, not even the editors. That guy does what he wants. Really, look him up on google image search. He looks like a real badass mofo pimp.

Xemnas

04-29-2009, 05:31 PM

@ Reflecter: Yea i recognize flanderization..im a tropehead XP, geass was awesome..but i was pissed i needed closure..why the FUCK did they keep showing Jupiter....what was so special about Suzaku, season one was great plot and all, R2 was sexy but sacrificed plot for Sexy and was WAY too fanservicy for me...Yes Pain pretty much offed the villiage and yes SS arc of Bleach was when the series was at it's best

I can't say im a type-moon ( i explained the sibling situation) fan but i like their characters in their respective fighters, and everyone here likes mecha...they just don't know it, after me and you discussed it i realized i saw way more Mecha anime than i thought i did

On Topic- Reading through your Ikki posts...they did crown him king too early...i think O!G tried to fix that by making him fall from grace (losing the Regalia and the title...Kilik burned him hard) but then they gave him a new road and made shit better so i can see where your coming from definitely

I assure you, Kazu will get his own road

Reincarnation

04-29-2009, 05:33 PM

Ganta has a backstory full of drama, I agree, but he isn't angsty at all. He's more of a wimp and good kid who tries his best. He's not one of those lone wolf emo bishie fags. And Kazuki isn't bashed is because he, unlike thousands other shounen leads, know how to act around women and isn't a total dickhead or idiot. Honestly, the cliche of a shounen hero not noticing the advances of the love interest is fucking old, and was never funny.

Ah, don't start this stupid debate. It's just as stupid as the moe debate. You know full well what plot hax means. Doing something you shouldn't be able to do only because the plot needs/writer wants it. And Ikki was full of it ever since chapter 1, FFS. Loved by the motherfucking wind. Of course, all shounen leads have this, but Ikki became Genesis' number one promising future star in such a fucking unbelievable way, that it isn't even funny. Storm King was 100% plot haxxage. How can they just create a new road and make it legitimate like that? Because it's Ikki, that's why. Kazu didn't get Inferno road and Agito didn't get Slasher Road when thet were in similar situations. Oh, and apparently the Storm Road will be an advantage over the other teams, because they don't know about the new road. Hey, I have a good idea! Let's give all Koga members new roads. It looked pretty easy when Ikki got one. Little effort, huge gain. SO yeah, Destruction road, Shit road and Best female in series road to Koga.

And Naruto's personality disappeared after part 1. All he does nowadays is baww after his yaoi buddy. Nobody's bashing the fact that he cares about his friends, it's just sad that his character has regressed from the occasionally fun character from part 1 to this onesided moralfaggy yaoibait.

And while I don't read actively Naruto, I see every week a scan or few in various Naruto threads on the site I hang out at (which shall remain unnamed), and this moral crap you speak of is VERY poorly executed. I mean, suddenly being all friendly to Pain and "I want to hear his backstory!" is just fail. I mean, the guy destroyed the whole city (I think he did. Not sure though.), killed J-man, Kakashi and that filler chick who hangs out with Mrs. Jugs. Suddenly wanting to hear his end of the story is just pathetically moralfaggy and Kishi trying (and failing in) to bring politics to Naruto.

Really, if you like Naruto, I won't complain. Everyone has their own tastes. My NAruto bashing is just my own opinion. I'm a huge Type-Moon fanboy and a mechaphile, but those interests aren't really appreciated here at all (Lolporn&wallsoftext and stupid tincans). So yeah.

And Bleach... The best things I can say are: THE NUMBERS! THEY GO FROM 0-9! & KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN KUROSAKI-KUN

And Kubo is one lazy ass fucker. The words A HEART written on a blank page, wow. Also, no backgrounds. EVER.
lol i know this isnt a naruto fourm but honestly i will never understand why people call sasuke a mary sue character ???

seriously the guy is far from and he barly has any wins under his belt, because kishi seems to always find a way to shit on him in big fights ie. haku, garra, kirabi

but umm yeah i pretty much agree with you when it comes to ikki except for the fact that most of my hate for his character stems from his extreame amounts of PLOT HAXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Xemnas

04-29-2009, 05:50 PM

lol i know this isnt a naruto fourm but honestly i will never understand why people call sasuke a mary sue character ???

seriously the guy is far from and he barly has any wins under his belt, because kishi seems to always find a way to shit on him in big fights ie. haku, garra, kirabi

but umm yeah i pretty much agree with you when it comes to ikki except for the fact that most of my hate for his character stems from his extreame amounts of PLOT HAXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Sasuke has beaten Naruto, Orochimaru, Itachi and Deidara, and 8 tails

And he haxed to do it...

Itachi- I beat Tsukoyomi with my hatred..BULLSHIT
Deidara- Im out of chakra but i still summoned a boss level summon (manda)
8 tails- i gotta protect the rapist, the first and the mentally unstable juggernaut AMATERASU...

That said he's my favorite character...im a sucker for all things lightning and katana

ON TOPIC- I think thats everyone problem with Ikki, if the hax was spread a little i don't think it would be so bad...it is extending though that shit with Agito...while badass was ridiculous

Epic_Rider

04-29-2009, 05:54 PM

Seriously I really don't see anything that Ikki does that can be considered as plotkai or plothax or whatever people call it much less any extreme amount of it. The Hurricane Road is different from the Wing Road the same way that the Bloddy Road is different from Gabishi's Road. Same principle but different ways of using it.
As for Bleach, well if you think it's laziness then that's your opinion.I think of it as minimalism,but that's just me.

Xemnas

04-29-2009, 06:13 PM

Waking_Dreamer

04-29-2009, 06:14 PM

Xemnas

04-29-2009, 06:47 PM

Since there are seemingly two conversations going on with every post, just a quick question to the mecha fans what do you guys think about TTGL?

Ive heard people praising it to be the best thing to happen in mecha genre for years...and while i thought it was an enjoyable ride...hardly a masterpiece and something worth a perfect 10 on the rating scale...

I quite like it..haven't finished it because im watching it on sci fi (i have the whole series on my comp and REFUSE to wacth it)

I love it because it's like another g-gundam to me

Me and my little bro just sit there lmfaoing at the show

When Kamina does Giga Drill break..i was like..where the fuck did that come from

The show is random but (actually it has a solid plot) but does random right which is really fucking hard to do

As for the Ikki hype....in all fairness the quick announcement of his "destined kingship" was deliberate plan to get everyone's eyes on him so the Sleeping Forest would be distracted from Nike and Sora's movements.

I always tend to forget this i think it was codenamed "New wind king development project" by Kilik

It was only in the Behemoth battle did Simca and Spitfire actually begin to believe there was something about Ikki - and by that time he had done some impressive shit already - the way he challenged Behemoth (with the use of a demolition ball) and changing the match to a team battle...that was pretty cool.

Thats true, and there was no real hax...i mean he was making a fool of Akira though but fighting hand to hand was something the crow was always good at

As for the Kubo thing - man I have to agree it seemed pretty freaking lazy. I seriously thought, man did Kubo break his arm or something? I guess he needs to pay the bills or is under some kind of contract to continually churn out chapters. but no, nothing wrong with him except for the fact he doesnt care. I mean after seeing the gold of Trident vs Genesis arc and then you go over to the Lust arcs - LMAO. It looks likes sketches on a notepad.

LMAO, yea but there are fanboys that think it's the best thing, i have to lower my standards to read bleach

I dont care whatever beef you have with OG or Air Gear but man when you look at his panels...this guys drawing whole cities in the background...hes giving you perspectives from engaging angles, detailed facial expressions, it doesnt matter if the character is sitting on his ass or just standing there that whole panel is used and more often than not - really effectively.

The guy draws hentai..so detail is his forte...my artstyle is based off of O!G's so i've gained the ability to draw detailed pictures with ridiculous speed (people always say i draw to fast) with a pen

Epic_Rider

04-29-2009, 06:51 PM

Well I seriously think of it as minimalism conveying a lot of meaning in a minimum of effort but I guess I can see what you mean when you compare it to Air Gear, Tenjou Tenge, H.S.D. Kenichi, Change 123 or any of those very well-drawn manga.
If you're talking about mecha, Gundam Wing was the beginning and it was good, neon Genesis Evangelion while known more for it's mythos, abstraction, characterization and psychology than it's mecha is still good in that respect. G-Gundam and Full Metal Panic are also very good. Gundam 00 and Gundam Seed are also good in my opinion but then I am a Gundam fan.
Going back to the thread here Waking_Dreamer your comments on the Ikki thing I agree with totally, very well reasoned.
One more thing has anyone watched Gundam Unicorn I belive it's called is it any good?

Carnevil

04-29-2009, 06:57 PM

OG uses plotkai by proxy to help Ikki. Ikki might not pull the plotkai all the time but instead OG makes plotkai happen that has nothing to do with his character per se. Random powerups to other characters to help him win, or characters showing up and helping for no adequately explored reason. Or having some random event happen in the battle that gives him and his team the edge.

Xemnas

04-29-2009, 07:27 PM

Carnevil

04-29-2009, 07:30 PM

A la Yayoi :)

Exactly or the Giant Head monster that attacked Dontores.

Reincarnation

04-29-2009, 07:55 PM

Sasuke has beaten Naruto, Orochimaru, Itachi and Deidara, and 8 tails

And he haxed to do it...

Itachi- I beat Tsukoyomi with my hatred..BULLSHIT
Deidara- Im out of chakra but i still summoned a boss level summon (manda)
8 tails- i gotta protect the rapist, the first and the mentally unstable juggernaut AMATERASU...

That said he's my favorite character...im a sucker for all things lightning and katana

ON TOPIC- I think thats everyone problem with Ikki, if the hax was spread a little i don't think it would be so bad...it is extending though that shit with Agito...while badass was ridiculous he beat naruto and fair and square at VoTE, orochimaru was weakened and returned like 50 chapters later, itachi planned on losing, and sasuke bullshited around the entire KB fight and got his ass handed to him.

and sasuke beat deidara ass flat out before they even got to that point plus this is a manga some kind of suspense has to be created to make readers come back for more. also did you forget about kabuto during the sannin fight ???

Xemnas

04-29-2009, 10:06 PM

Your looking at the fights as a whole im looking at those specific instances

Yea he did beat Deidara fair and square...i actually own the volume in english but haven't read it until today >_>

And Naruto wasn't on my list of hax fights, sure Itachi meant to lose but that doesn't explain his breaking the Tsukoyomi made any more sense, with Deidara? come on how big is this guys chakra pool to revert to curse seal use all those Genjutsu and chidori variations and STILL have enough in the tank for a boss level summon which he manipulated using sharingan?

As for Killer bee...when the hell did he get Amaterasu? because the stalker, the fishboy and Andriod 16 were getting pwned too

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

04-30-2009, 12:35 AM

I thought this was air gear, not talk about how sasuke is crap and the most hypocritcal phail character in nartuo :D
Ikki is Ikki, I don't understand the hatred towards him. He's really only a dick when he's not serious. Yes, he gets some hacks, but thats all shounen manga.

Xemnas

04-30-2009, 01:45 AM

There are more Ikki fans than i thought...this should have been a poll im curious as to what the results would be

Reflector

04-30-2009, 04:33 AM

Since there are seemingly two conversations going on with every post, just a quick question to the mecha fans what do you guys think about TTGL?

Ive heard people praising it to be the best thing to happen in mecha genre for years...and while i thought it was an enjoyable ride...hardly a masterpiece and something worth a perfect 10 on the rating scale...

The people calling it a masterpiece are retards. TTGL is great, really good and entertaining. It's meant as a homage to the old classic super robot series. It serves it's purpose really well. But those GARRR WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE!!? XDDDD Fanboys are among the most annoying fans I've ever met. They're as bad as raging Uchiha fans. I love TTGL, but every time I think about it, I'm reminded of those 12 year old retarded lol kamina GAR fags. Really, the way Simon & Kamina act is amusing and awesome as fuck. But I would hardly consider it GAR, not seriously at least. All in all, great and entertaining show. Not the best there is, but great nonetheless.

And about Kubo. Do you really think a guy like this (http://www.publishersweekly.com/articles/images/PWK/20080729/TiteKubo.jpg) is actually paying attention to what would be best for the story? No. He gives what the fanboys/girls want, and gets his money.

Editor: "Hey, Kubo, how bout drawing some backgrounds once in a while? Or killing off someone important to caus drama? Or stop recycling the same rescue Ichigo's girlfriend plotline?"
Kubo: "Fuck you, fuck you and fuck you. I'm rich, I love my life."

Well I seriously think of it as minimalism conveying a lot of meaning in a minimum of effort but I guess I can see what you mean when you compare it to Air Gear, Tenjou Tenge, H.S.D. Kenichi, Change 123 or any of those very well-drawn manga.
If you're talking about mecha, Gundam Wing was the beginning and it was good, neon Genesis Evangelion while known more for it's mythos, abstraction, characterization and psychology than it's mecha is still good in that respect. G-Gundam and Full Metal Panic are also very good. Gundam 00 and Gundam Seed are also good in my opinion but then I am a Gundam fan.
Going back to the thread here Waking_Dreamer your comments on the Ikki thing I agree with totally, very well reasoned.
One more thing has anyone watched Gundam Unicorn I belive it's called is it any good?
Eva is definitely a classic, one of the best. But if I were an asshole, I'd remark that Eva isn't a full-fledged mecha, as there is no actual mecha piloting in the series. But yeah, it's generally classified as mecha, because that's where it fits best. Fullmetal Panic first season was alright, a little above average. The Second Raid was fucking awesome and totally hardcore. 00 started good, ended up as slightly below average. Seed started below average. Ended up as a fucking piece of shit. Wing was OK, but I couldn't stand the horrible characters, so I don't care about it. But what do you mean Wing was the beginning? I've never heard anything like that before.

And I assume you mean Gundam UC, not unicorn. UC is Universal Century, the timeline were many of the best gundams take place in, like MS Gundam, Zeta, CCA, 0080 & 08th MS team.
The Gundam Unicorn you mentioned is not an anime or movie, it's a series of Light novels. But they will be adapted to an anime around christmas. But before watching that, I'd suggest getting a little familiar with the UC timeline, as Unicorn takes place 3 years after CCA.

Oh, and while we're still talking about gundams: Turn A Gundam and Gundam X. Those are the only non-UC gundams that are truly and genuinely great shows, along with G-gundam which you already mentioned

To stay on topic: Ikki is a Gary Stu OG self-insert who's also a huge douche and I dislike him.

Epic_Rider

04-30-2009, 08:43 AM

iSuckAtNaming

04-30-2009, 08:52 AM

the main topic is about why ikki sucks or win, how come it ends as gundam thread XP

me? ikki is uh... neutral? O!G needs his preverted side for those fanservices, and his cool side for those drama plot

Xemnas

04-30-2009, 08:59 AM

Umm wtf is GAR

the main topic is about why ikki sucks or win, how come it ends as gundam thread XP

That tends to happen when there are too many intelligent posters (god i love this forum)

Because they can abstain from flaming one another any conflicts (especially in flame bait like this) are avoided through friendly debate and discussion...the result is usually derailment, but as you can see every post tries to remain on topic, if even only for a sentence

Epic_Rider

04-30-2009, 09:18 AM

GAR is any character in a manga that is so manly that you really can't compare your manliness to theirs at all. It was first mentioned in regards to Fate/stay night character Archer (By the way Fate/stay night is the best). Just so you know

Reflector

04-30-2009, 09:31 AM

Ah one just for the record you got my name wrong on the quote. I personally like Gundam Seed and Gundam 00 mainly because of Kira, Flay, Athrun and Lacus for Seed and Setsuna and Saji for 00. When i said Gundam Wing was the beginning I meant that it was the first Gundam make that mecha anime I ever watched. Thanks for the tips on Turn A Gundam and Gundam X as well as Gundam Unicorn, I'll have to check the first two out. But if you're talking about Gundam you have to mention G-Gundam, it is one of the best Gundams ever.
Back to the thread I don't see where Ikki is a Gary-Stu or a douche all that much and I frankly like his character.
Ah, yes. There's a guy with that name here too, so I mixed up. I edited it. See, that's what happens when you multitask over your capacities. 12 Tabs open and watching an episode of Seto no Hanayome, while playing Saya no Uta (VN). While trying to study. Haha.
And i did mention G-gundam, if you read carefully.

Umm wtf is GAR?

That tends to happen when there are too many intelligent posters (god i love this forum)

Because they can abstain from flaming one another any conflicts (especially in flame bait like this) are avoided through friendly debate and discussion...the result is usually derailment, but as you can see every post tries to remain on topic, if even only for a sentence
GAR is a term that anime fans tend to use. It's being used very widely, almost every anime related forum use it. But few know of it's origin. It originally came from the /a/ - Animu & Mango imageboard around the times when the Fate Stay Night anime aired (ep 14). Given anon's love for F/SN, the anime was incredibly awaited and hyped (too bad it was quite a letdown). It contains a character named Archer, who was quite the fan favorite even before the anime.

The only good thing the anime gave was the scene which gave birth to GAR - Archer's final scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZBAEk_Ugmk). GAR means Gay for Archer. Or meant originally. Now it's widely accepted as a term that describes incredibly awesome manliness and hotblood. It's only reserved for the finest of men. Men so manly, that you'll feel likea woman next to them, and can't help falling in love with them. Of course, that makes you gay for the character. Oh and Emiya is playing in he end of that scene, btw. Best BGM ever.

It can be used in two ways: Example - I'm GAR for Emiya Shirou (It's true; I am GAR for him).
Or the other way: Archer is GAR.
It is also used to characters totally unrelated to Type-Moon. Actually, it's used more to those characters, because probably 60% of those who use the term do not even know of it's origin. I rage every time I see someone saying GARuto.

And I actually don't mind the derailment at all. It's a nice way to discuss other thing than just AG. The anime and manga sections are dead all the time, and this is really slow forum, so I think it's actually ok. Of course, many will probably disagree with this.

EDIT: To stay on topic: I do not like Ikki because of various reasons.
EDIT2: You like F/SN, Epic_Rider? Hmm, plus points for you. Did you watch the anime or play the VN or both (like me)?

Xemnas

04-30-2009, 10:54 AM

So thats what GAR is? I'm thinking Domon Kasshu is GAR him and Kamina

Epic_Rider

04-30-2009, 11:20 AM

Xemnas

04-30-2009, 11:34 AM

Actually I haven't played the game, I just started watching the anime recently and got really into it. And Xemnas Domon Kasshu is GAR, the mere fact that he is Domon Kasshu makes him GAR.
And since Reflector likes to talk about other anime and manga, what are your opinions on Fairy Tail, Change 123 and Get Backers (the manga I am currently reading)
Just to stay on track with the thread here, what about Ikki makes him a douche, exactly? i just don't see it.

I don't think his douchebaggy moments are so bad...it's mainly because he has so many of them...and a lot of them are towards the forums favorite character Kazu

That and he's arrogant w/o much to back it up, he's a really good rider and practices a lot...but not to the extent where he should speaking as arrogantly as he does...and because O!G saves him using some Dues Ex Machina moments it doesn't really help his case

Carnevil

04-30-2009, 11:50 AM

When meeting calamities or difficult situations, it is not enough to simply say that one is not at all flustered. When meeting difficult situations, one should dash forward bravely and with joy. It is the crossing of a single barrier and is like the saying, “The more the water, the higher the boat.”

Xemnas

04-30-2009, 11:57 AM

Why the awesome yet random quote?

Carnevil

04-30-2009, 12:45 PM

Why the awesome yet random quote?

No real reason other then I felt like posting a quote from Hagakure. A little random wisdom does the mind and soul good.

Xemnas

04-30-2009, 12:46 PM

That was the philosophical book you linked me too right?

Carnevil

04-30-2009, 12:52 PM

That was the philosophical book you linked me too right?

Yep, I love that book.

Reflector

05-03-2009, 12:41 PM

Sup, Reflector here, back from the three day abscence, just to derail the thread further.

Actually I haven't played the game, I just started watching the anime recently and got really into it. And Xemnas Domon Kasshu is GAR, the mere fact that he is Domon Kasshu makes him GAR.
And since Reflector likes to talk about other anime and manga, what are your opinions on Fairy Tail, Change 123 and Get Backers (the manga I am currently reading)
Just to stay on track with the thread here, what about Ikki makes him a douche, exactly? i just don't see it.

Fate/Stay Night is my favorite franchise. It's so comprehensive and unbelievably interesting and deep. My only complaint is that the anime was very poorly adapted. It wasn't bad, but for those of us who are familiar with the intense epicness of the VN (game), it was quite the letdown. The anime follows the Fate route, which is the introduction route, and contains the least GAR. Also, the anime kind of cut out all development Shirou had, and made him seem like a gigantic idiot hero, who's stupidly trying to save everyone. The VN depicts him as way more intelligent. Also, the reason why he keeps saving everyone isn't because he's nice. It's because he doesn't have a sense of self. He can't feel joy through his own pleasure, and has to sacrifice himself to make others happy, so that he can feel it himself.

I REALLY recommend playing the VN. It's downloadable, and translated. And if you can't get it working, I bet there are some nice, awesome, intelligent and good-natured users on the internet who can help (Wink wink, nudge nudge, *cough*me*cough*if you know what I mean). The only reasons why someone wouldn't like it are being afraid of the five minute H-sequences or if they dislike reading. Really, it's awesome, 100/10.

If you want to be spolied, here goes:

Fate: Interesting and above average: Introduces the universe. Shirou follows his ideal to the end, falls in love with Saber. His best moment is when he traced Caliburn and cut off Berserker's arm

Unlimited Blade Works: Intense as fuck and 100% GAR. Shirou falls in love with Rin. He also starts to feel attraction to Archer's Kanshou & Bakuya dual swords, and starts using them as his main weapon. Later it's revealed that Archer is twisted Shirou from the future, and Shirou & Archer clash in an epic battle of ideals. Shirou wins, but understands that his ideal is an impossible dream. But he still keeps following the endless path, because it encompasses an aesthethic that he considers beautiful. He learns to use Archer's Reality Marble, Unlimited Blade Works, which is the ultimate truth to those who have lived their life as a sword. He uses this to defeat Gilgamesh one on one.

Heavens feel: Depressing and very GAR. Shirou falls in love with Sakura, loses an arm, gets GARm transplant from Archie-boy, Kills Berserker 9 times with said arm. Too bad a Servants magic circuits are too powerful for a human, and he starts slowly dying from the strain. In the end, useless folly between two dying fools unwilling to give up. Shirou and Kotomine have a fist fight to the death. Oh, and he gave up on his dream to make Sakura happy.

I think Fairy Tail is too much like OP to my tastes. I mean, the main character IS practically Luffy with different powers. Feels too much like blatant rip-offing. The other two I haven't read.

And yes, Domon Kasshu is definitely GAR. Kamina, well.. It's debatable.

---

Ikki, well, he's a douche because of how he acts. He talks like he's fucking Kiric-level, despite being just a 15 year old runt. Also, the nutriding is incredibly annoying, he gets so much credit without actually having to do much. Also, the whole existence of the Storm Road is a really stupid plothax. Why doesn't Ikki have to work for his title as a king and his regalia like Kazu has and Agito had? Instead, TTT go out of their way to create a new one from scratch.

Oh, and the way he treats Kazu is annoying. I don't care if Kazu isn't bothered about it. I still think that's douchy behavior.

iMeh

05-03-2009, 01:16 PM

Sup, Reflector here, back from the three day abscence, just to derail the thread further.

Fate/Stay Night is my favorite franchise. It's so comprehensive and unbelievably interesting and deep. My only complaint is that the anime was very poorly adapted. It wasn't bad, but for those of us who are familiar with the intense epicness of the VN (game), it was quite the letdown. The anime follows the Fate route, which is the introduction route, and contains the least GAR. Also, the anime kind of cut out all development Shirou had, and made him seem like a gigantic idiot hero, who's stupidly trying to save everyone. The VN depicts him as way more intelligent. Also, the reason why he keeps saving everyone isn't because he's nice. It's because he doesn't have a sense of self. He can't feel joy through his own pleasure, and has to sacrifice himself to make others happy, so that he can feel it himself.

I REALLY recommend playing the VN. It's downloadable, and translated. And if you can't get it working, I bet there are some nice, awesome, intelligent and good-natured users on the internet who can help (Wink wink, nudge nudge, *cough*me*cough*if you know what I mean). The only reasons why someone wouldn't like it are being afraid of the five minute H-sequences or if they dislike reading. Really, it's awesome, 100/10.

If you want to be spolied, here goes:

Fate: Interesting and above average: Introduces the universe. Shirou follows his ideal to the end, falls in love with Saber. His best moment is when he traced Caliburn and cut off Berserker's arm

Unlimited Blade Works: Intense as fuck and 100% GAR. Shirou falls in love with Rin. He also starts to feel attraction to Archer's Kanshou & Bakuya dual swords, and starts using them as his main weapon. Later it's revealed that Archer is twisted Shirou from the future, and Shirou & Archer clash in an epic battle of ideals. Shirou wins, but understands that his ideal is an impossible dream. But he still keeps following the endless path, because it encompasses an aesthethic that he considers beautiful. He learns to use Archer's Reality Marble, Unlimited Blade Works, which is the ultimate truth to those who have lived their life as a sword. He uses this to defeat Gilgamesh one on one.

Heavens feel: Depressing and very GAR. Shirou falls in love with Sakura, loses an arm, gets GARm transplant from Archie-boy, Kills Berserker 9 times with said arm. Too bad a Servants magic circuits are too powerful for a human, and he starts slowly dying from the strain. In the end, useless folly between two dying fools unwilling to give up. Shirou and Kotomine have a fist fight to the death. Oh, and he gave up on his dream to make Sakura happy.

I think Fairy Tail is too much like OP to my tastes. I mean, the main character IS practically Luffy with different powers. Feels too much like blatant rip-offing. The other two I haven't read.

And yes, Domon Kasshu is definitely GAR. Kamina, well.. It's debatable.

---

Ikki, well, he's a douche because of how he acts. He talks like he's fucking Kiric-level, despite being just a 15 year old runt. Also, the nutriding is incredibly annoying, he gets so much credit without actually having to do much. Also, the whole existence of the Storm Road is a really stupid plothax. Why doesn't Ikki have to work for his title as a king and his regalia like Kazu has and Agito had? Instead, TTT go out of their way to create a new one from scratch.

Oh, and the way he treats Kazu is annoying. I don't care if Kazu isn't bothered about it. I still think that's douchy behavior.

After reading that, makes me wanna play the VN, I'll do it later or tomorrow though.

Waking_Dreamer

05-03-2009, 01:46 PM

That and he's arrogant w/o much to back it up, he's a really good rider and practices a lot...but not to the extent where he should speaking as arrogantly as he does...and because O!G saves him using some Dues Ex Machina moments it doesn't really help his case

True, but his arrogance is what pushes the team forward. I mean if he didnt say such high stuff about himself AND the team they would not have passed GO in the Behemoth and OSF match.

Some people find it annoying (really annoying) but his arrogance is what drops his team in the deep end and forces them to swim.

windwaker

05-03-2009, 01:53 PM

Reflector

05-03-2009, 02:09 PM

True, but his arrogance is what pushes the team forward. I mean if he didnt say such high stuff about himself AND the team they would not have passed GO in the Behemoth and OSF match.

Some people find it annoying (really annoying) but his arrogance is what drops his team in the deep end and forces them to swim.
Yes, nobody's disagreeing with that. But the way OG does it with Ikki just rubs many the wrong way. I can take cocky characters. Take Gilgamesh or Archer from F/SN. Those are awesome. Gil is probably THE cockiest character. Still I feel anger towards Ikki, despite liking Gil. It's just that OG writes it really bad, while Nasu's a genius.

And those who think Iki's smart: What about the little GST application episode? Was that him being smart? I think it just showed us that Ikki is generic shounen lead stupid as bricks.

After reading that, makes me wanna play the VN, I'll do it later or tomorrow though.
And for you, my friend with good taste, I have a sample of the VN right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAc4YlnoxlQ. VN's aren't everybody's thing. If you like it, then I'd suggest playing it instantly. I personally LOVE playing VNs.

The link contains spoilers, though, but not many. Insane amounts of ShiBROu and GARcher's GARm badassery are also in it, so get ready to Mangasm. If you dislike what you saw, I do not consider you a man. Only real men understand the beauty of Nine Lives Blade Works.

Carnevil

05-03-2009, 02:16 PM

What things a person should be able to accomplish if he had no haughtiness concerning his place in society! It is a wretched thing that the young men of today are so contriving and so proud of their material possessions. Men with contriving hearts are lacking in duty. Lacking in duty, they will have no self-respect.

iMeh

05-03-2009, 02:40 PM

Yes, nobody's disagreeing with that. But the way OG does it with Ikki just rubs many the wrong way. I can take cocky characters. Take Gilgamesh or Archer from F/SN. Those are awesome. Gil is probably THE cockiest character. Still I feel anger towards Ikki, despite liking Gil. It's just that OG writes it really bad, while Nasu's a genius.

And those who think Iki's smart: What about the little GST application episode? Was that him being smart? I think it just showed us that Ikki is generic shounen lead stupid as bricks.

And for you, my friend with good taste, I have a sample of the VN right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAc4YlnoxlQ. VN's aren't everybody's thing. If you like it, then I'd suggest playing it instantly. I personally LOVE playing VNs.

The link contains spoilers, though, but not many. Insane amounts of ShiBROu and GARcher's GARm badassery are also in it, so get ready to Mangasm. If you dislike what you saw, I do not consider you a man. Only real men understand the beauty of Nine Lives Blade Works.

Is it 1st or 3rd person?

Reflector

05-03-2009, 05:06 PM

Is it 1st or 3rd person?
1st from Shirou's point of view is around 90% of the game. The prologue is from Rin's POV, however, and there are short interludes from other characters perspectives too, like Archer's, Ilya's or Saber's.

Xemnas

05-03-2009, 05:43 PM

Yes, nobody's disagreeing with that. But the way OG does it with Ikki just rubs many the wrong way. I can take cocky characters. Take Gilgamesh or Archer from F/SN. Those are awesome. Gil is probably THE cockiest character. Still I feel anger towards Ikki, despite liking Gil. It's just that OG writes it really bad, while Nasu's a genius.

And those who think Iki's smart: What about the little GST application episode? Was that him being smart? I think it just showed us that Ikki is generic shounen lead stupid as bricks.

Loli think this is the kindest most restrained Ikki post i've ever seen you make

I remembered the GST application thing, i think the trope for that would be obfuscating stupidity (can read trickpaths and memorize the architecture of the arena but does stupid crap like he did with the application)

Carnevil

05-03-2009, 05:52 PM

I remembered the GST application thing, i think the trope for that would be obfuscating stupidity (can read trickpaths and memorize the architecture of the arena but does stupid crap like he did with the application)

I'm going with that being more to do with his genetics then his intellect. It's like him being able to control the wind as easily as he does yet he had trouble learning that trick that Ohama showed him and Kazu while Kazu picked it up right away.

Nee'lahn

05-04-2009, 05:05 AM

To use my favourite word for him He fluctuates

good: strong leader, seems to have battle intelligence/ is clever in a pinch, wind power, inspiring, caring because when it matters he does the decent thing. (the may not be many but when they show their great)

Bad: he was/is a bully if he can get away with it, arrogant, egostical, stupidy beyond belief, slow, inconsiderate (or appears to be), narrow minded and uncouth and needlessly over the top.

These bad attributes may be put down to his own insecurities, raging testerone and just general attention seeking personality but maybe what annoys me about is that you know he can be a great and cool leader and then he just lets you down by gross or mbecilic actions that are just anticlimatically and almost ruins the whole image of them being so wonderful that other characters become their fanclub. For all intent and purposes you meant to side with the main character really but right now I'm rooting for Kiric and his aura of death really (I'm comparing them since their both leaders.)

Epic_Rider

05-04-2009, 09:54 AM

I get what you're saying but most of these idiot things that Ikki does are for humour. I just see it as a part of his character and it doesn't really bother me (most of the time).

Reflector

05-04-2009, 10:09 AM

I get what you're saying but most of these idiot things that Ikki does are for humour. I just see it as a part of his character and it doesn't really bother me (most of the time).

Did you think the GST application episode was funny? I thought it was incredibly retarded and just showed Ikki being a huge assburger. And shitting on the streets is indeed for humor, but I don't find it funny at all. That's the kind of thing that makes Ikki a huge turd. Really, I doubt his IQ is even half of Paris Hilton's. All the smart things he does are just him getting a stat boost from the necessity the plot creates. A character that fluctuates with the needs of the plot, that's just plain bad writing.

tornadoking

05-04-2009, 11:06 AM

the shitting on the street really got to me too but the arrogance is ok because sometimes he has the right to be.

Also, does anybody know any anime or manga where somebody uses armor on their arms like in s-cry-ed or bleach.

Epic_Rider

05-04-2009, 11:23 AM

Reflector

05-04-2009, 11:30 AM

Well I will admit tha the GST application thing was passing the limit of stupidity but nobody is perfect after all. Even geniuses do stupid things at times, so I just as I said see it as a flaw in his character, when he does exceptionally stupid things that aren't really funny. Flaws are part of what make characters appealing so I don't really mind it.
Ikki has huge, fucking annoying flaws to the audience, but in the story, he's goddamn Jesus. "WING WIND STORM HOPE NEW DAWN" is stupid and annoying.

Shitty character is shitty. OG really fails with his main characters.

iMeh

05-04-2009, 11:49 AM

Ikki has huge, fucking annoying flaws to the audience, but in the story, he's goddamn Jesus. "WING WIND STORM HOPE NEW DAWN" is stupid and annoying.

Shitty character is shitty. OG really fails with his main characters.

IMO Supporting/Minor > Main characters any day, lol. I hope he gets injured when a battle insues then Kazu takes over and someone joins Koga as a guest. (Just like Koga Vs Animal House)

Reflector

05-04-2009, 02:32 PM

IMO Supporting/Minor > Main characters any day, lol. I hope he gets injured when a battle insues then Kazu takes over and someone joins Koga as a guest. (Just like Koga Vs Animal House)
Weell, that isn't always the case. Definitely in standard shounen and Air Gear, but I can name quite a few series where the main character was really good and genuinely likable. I watched Darker than Black only because I wanted to see Chinese electric batman kick ass.
And all Type-Moon works have a really good main character. Tohno Shiki from Tsukihime is pretty damn cool, Ryougi Shiki from Kara no Kyoukai is awesome and Shirou.... GAR as fuck (UBW path, particularly) and a buffet of manliness, like anon likes to put it. Awesome quotes too, like the one in my sig.

The list of good protagonists is long: Loran (Turn A), Lulu (Geass), Sousuke(FMP), Nagasumi (SnH), Spike (Bebop), Kyon (Haruhi), Onizuka (GTO), Nozomu-sensei (SZS), Firo/Isaac (Baccano!), Nanoha, Garrod (Gundam X)... The list can expand to the heavens.

It's just that Ikki is a failure of a character. Uninteresting, unbelievable, Gary Stu and annoying as fuck. And the fact that OG keeps forcing the runt on us like some kind of messiah just ruins it further. It's like he really tries to force us to sympathize with him (like the pathetic drama queen sequence).
Incidentally, the time Ikki was hospitalized is among my favorite parts of the series.

Nee'lahn

05-04-2009, 02:43 PM

IMO Supporting/Minor > Main characters any day, lol. I hope he gets injured when a battle insues then Kazu takes over and someone joins Koga as a guest. (Just like Koga Vs Animal House)

Totally non anime related but your comment just reminded me of the Paul O'Grady show (really showing where I'm from with this) Its a guest chat show thing and the guy who show it is keeps going off sick so they have replacements hosts to do the show for him. Clearly the comparasion will just be funny in my head but I had to share.

Most people probably like the minor characters because for the most part their not Ikki and rarely shoved in our Faces. What interests me is fanart on DA is filled with Agito Akito or Ikki or Simcra art and then the rest is mostly cosplay photographs and then here its more Kazu, Kiric, Nike, Sora, Aeon, Spitfire, Yoshi, Benkei, Emiri, Kururu who get the majority (it have to do with most of them not actually reading the Manga though) .

Reflector

05-04-2009, 03:01 PM

Totally non anime related but your comment just reminded me of the Paul O'Grady show (really showing where I'm from with this) Its a guest chat show thing and the guy who show it is keeps going off sick so they have replacements hosts to do the show for him. Clearly the comparasion will just be funny in my head but I had to share.

Most people probably like the minor characters because for the most part their not Ikki and rarely shoved in our Faces. What interests me is fanart on DA is filled with Agito Akito or Ikki or Simcra art and then the rest is mostly cosplay photographs and then here its more Kazu, Kiric, Nike, Sora, Aeon, Spitfire, Yoshi, Benkei, Emiri, Kururu who get the majority (it have to do with most of them not actually reading the Manga though) .
Well, about fanart. Naruto has a fuckload of it, BLAME! has virtually none. And I don't know about you guys, but I sure know which one is the better one by a large margin. Hint: It's not Naruto.

The amount of fanart does not equal to something being actually good. another example: A huge amount of anime fanart is yaoi. Is yaoi good? Fuck no, no way in hell. Yaoi is total and utter shit. So there you go.

Waking_Dreamer

05-04-2009, 05:22 PM

^ Hell freaking yea...!!

Quantity of fanart is correspondent to exposure of anime and not quality.

As for the yaoi... oh geez I dont like it when you type in two badass guys from a series to see if there's any badass art of them like battling each other - only to find every second pic on DA they're making out?!?! There should be an option if your not looking for that...it aint going to popup...

Xemnas

05-04-2009, 07:00 PM

Yaoi is sinful

Really, I doubt his IQ is even half of Paris Hilton's

It can't be that low..he was in the same class as ringo meaning he's in regulary ed..i doubdt he's profoundly retarded or anything

Like i say some of it is O!G fault because he sucks at humor...but you gotta remember this isn't an after school special he doesn't have to make Ikki a role model but i must wonder how the girls don't get turned off by his public dumps

ThePizzaboy456

05-05-2009, 04:24 AM

iSuckAtNaming

05-05-2009, 07:06 AM

To be honest, I'm sick and tired of sterotypical shonen male protaganists that want to save people/world, who are pathetic and indesisive, or all-around goody-goody.

agreed.

tough, ikki taking dump in the park is simply a stupid joke

and the part about the GST application was proabbly Desprate Ogure who wants koga to fight the OSF

Reflector

05-05-2009, 07:32 AM

I actually like Ikki for all his flaws; yes, even the dump in the park (classic I think).

To be honest, I'm sick and tired of sterotypical shonen male protaganists that want to save people/world, who are pathetic and indesisive, or all-around goody-goody.

So, Ikki fits into my tastes as far as protaganists go; along with Yusuke Urameshi, and Oga from the new series Beelzebub.
Ikki is cliched too, you know. The basic shounen arrogance, executed worse than the most. The basic talented noob, executed WAY worse than the most. The basic natural leader thing, executed pretty crappily. The basic shounen badly written romance, executed pretty crappily. And if the "save people"-thing was a jab at Emiya Shirou (which I believe it wasn't; Shirou isn't exactly from a shounen), then you're a faggot and should feel bad. No one calls my bro pathetic. If it wasn't aimed at him, then I apologize for my rudeness.

And the dump in the park is totally retarded and unfunny.

If you're so tired of shounen protagonists, then why don't try something else?

Waking_Dreamer

05-05-2009, 08:17 AM

Im thinking the save the world/people reference is more than likely Ichigo from Bleach. Actually Bleach is like the 10 Commandments to stereotypical Shounen Action manga.

What Ive noticed though is when people dis Ikki they refer to less than shining moments. Eg. how can one like a character who shits in public? The guy must be lowest of the low right...? But when it comes to his awesomeness its simply written off well its plot and the story demands his victory and not really due to him as a character. (Though i know there is some hax involved. )

Doesnt the door swing both ways? I mean if its plot that the dude can ride the wind surly its plot that he fucked up the GST application, and not really a sign that he may have a mental deficiency...

I mean you can chose to add shitting in public as the icing on the cake of Ikki hate...or you could just write that off as OGs little off beat sense of humor, and not let the character of Ikki annoy the crap out of you. Its up to you.

Xemnas

05-05-2009, 10:35 AM

Ikki's is sort of cliche, his CLiche is badass brawler, a deliquent kind character

For examples see, Ichigo Kurosaki at the beginning of bleach, and Yusuke Urameshi

Reflector

05-06-2009, 09:04 AM

Ikki's is sort of cliche, his CLiche is badass brawler, a deliquent kind character

For examples see, Ichigo Kurosaki at the beginning of bleach, and Yusuke Urameshi
Ikki has way more cliches than just those. The only thing that differentiates him from most of the shounen heroes is his assholery and shitting in public. Idiot Hero, The Chosen One, The Hero, Luke I am your Father (probably, not confirmed), The Leeroy Jenkins, and many more.

And about the "save people" cliche, that many seem to hate so much: There are guys in that trope, who are far more likable characters than Ikki. If you compare to Ichigo, your just being an idiot. Ichigo has no personality, and his plotline is just "PROTECT MY NAKAMA" with no apparent reason. But there are great moralfag characters. Does the line "Omae wa mou... Shindeiru" ring any bells? Kenshiro from Hokuto no Ken (the Dragonball before Dragonball) is pretty badass, despite being a huge moralfaggot. Ichigo is just very badly written, that's all.

Oh, and the undisputable King of "I want to save everyone!" is SO much more likable than Ikki will ever be. This guy I'm talking about also happens to be in my sig and is one of my favorite characters.
And he's much more badass and manly than wannabe hotblood mary sue Ikki.

That's right, Ikki fans. A huge moralfag "save everyone" pathetic goody-goody indecisive cliche guy is more awesome than the cool delinquent bad boy. Don't believe it? Take a look:
http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv43/JIBUNWOO/1234811462593.jpg?t=1241614741

Unbelievable? No.

Epic_Rider

05-06-2009, 12:00 PM

First thing, that pic was amazing. I don't recognize who that was or where it came from so please tell me, it looks incredible.

And Reflector your take on Ichigo's 'Protect My Nakama' thing, what reason do you mean, this may sound cliche, but you protect people you care about because you care about them that should be obvious.

Well coming up with a really original plot is not easy, when you boil it down to the essentials, it's all about execution and I've said this earlier but Ikki may have some cliches yes but it does not impact unfavourably on his character to me at least. I just like the way O!G developed his character, for the most part.

iMeh

05-06-2009, 01:33 PM

Reflector

05-06-2009, 02:21 PM

That's Shirou Emiya from the Fate/Stay Night VN, Heaven's Feel route. (STILL HAVEN'T PLAYED IT :()

Yes, you're correct. That's HF Shirou. So I take it that you watched the clip I posted earlier? Pretty damn awesome. My third favorite scene in whole F/SN, which is really long by the way, ~50-60 hours as one path generally takes 16-20 h.

I really like Shirou, he's one of my favorite characters, despite being the biggest save em all character. The thing with Ichigo is that he is driven by an unexplainable desire to protect everyone all the time. It really overshadows all his other attributes. It's really boring, and unbelievable. He wants to give everything up because he's nice? Blah.

Shirou comes off as a very irritating and stupid character in the F/SN anime, because it follows his least shining route, Fate, and managed to butcher and cut out all his development in favor for the producer's "oh, look at Saber. She's cute, look at her, MOEEE girls doing girly stuff" faggotry (and they got his hair wrong. Shirou doesn't have a fucking bowl cut).

But really, Shirou's mentality stems from the fact that he was in a horrible fire when he was young. The episode really shattered his psyche, and his mentality is totally fucked up. He couldn't even function normally at a time. He had to find something to function as a base to build his personality and psyche back on. The best thing he could find was the joyous smile of Kiritsugu when he saved him. So he dedicated his whole self for that smile of happiness only.

That wicked way led to him developing a state where he cannot find happiness by his own experiences. The only emotion he feels is when he helps others, because it gives him the feeling he got from Kiritsugu's smile back on that fateful day. That's a fuckload deeper than 'I like my friends'. Really, playing the VN makes you realize just how shattered, broken and fucked up he is.

The anime couldn't really deliver Nasu's genius way of writing, so he comes off as he's incredibly shallow and stupid as bricks. Nasu really makes you understand Shirou's thought process (which is a bit absurd, though), and realize what a fascinating character he really is. The way Nasu describes everything is fucking beautiful. I'll make a confession: Normally anime and manga do not invoke strong emotions in me. My huge rage at Ikki is mostly just to stir up his fans for a debate, as this forum is pretty dead at times. But F/SN (& TH) have made me cry at multiple occasions. God, I'm such a fucking pussy, but I can't help it.

The anime also failed to explain why Shirou is so damn good at projecting swords. It's because of the fact that his mentality is like a sword itself. He protects others by sacrificing himself. The ultimate truth for those who walk that path is called Unlimited Blade Works. That is Shirou's power. But he only unlocks it's full potential in UBW path.

That's what makes a good character. Deep story and good explanations. Not MY FRIENDS & SHINIGAMI or TAKE A DUMP & WINGS.

I have no idea why I'm blabbering so much about Shirou all of a sudden, man I'm dick-riding Nasu harder than Simca & folks do with Ikki. Pathetic

Here, have a UBW Shirou:
http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv43/JIBUNWOO/1234811335552.jpg?t=1241633404

Oh, and iMeh. When you decide to play it, don't be afraid to ask for help in installing it if you need it. VNs can be tricky at times. Especially the longer ones like F/SN.

.....Well, this was fucking off-topic. I apologize for my raging T-M fanboyism.

iMeh

05-07-2009, 04:25 AM

Yes, you're correct. That's HF Shirou. So I take it that you watched the clip I posted earlier? Pretty damn awesome. My third favorite scene in whole F/SN, which is really long by the way, ~50-60 hours as one path generally takes 16-20 h.

I really like Shirou, he's one of my favorite characters, despite being the biggest save em all character. The thing with Ichigo is that he is driven by an unexplainable desire to protect everyone all the time. It really overshadows all his other attributes. It's really boring, and unbelievable. He wants to give everything up because he's nice? Blah.

Shirou comes off as a very irritating and stupid character in the F/SN anime, because it follows his least shining route, Fate, and managed to butcher and cut out all his development in favor for the producer's "oh, look at Saber. She's cute, look at her, MOEEE girls doing girly stuff" faggotry (and they got his hair wrong. Shirou doesn't have a fucking bowl cut).

But really, Shirou's mentality stems from the fact that he was in a horrible fire when he was young. The episode really shattered his psyche, and his mentality is totally fucked up. He couldn't even function normally at a time. He had to find something to function as a base to build his personality and psyche back on. The best thing he could find was the joyous smile of Kiritsugu when he saved him. So he dedicated his whole self for that smile of happiness only.

That wicked way led to him developing a state where he cannot find happiness by his own experiences. The only emotion he feels is when he helps others, because it gives him the feeling he got from Kiritsugu's smile back on that fateful day. That's a fuckload deeper than 'I like my friends'. Really, playing the VN makes you realize just how shattered, broken and fucked up he is.

The anime couldn't really deliver Nasu's genius way of writing, so he comes off as he's incredibly shallow and stupid as bricks. Nasu really makes you understand Shirou's thought process (which is a bit absurd, though), and realize what a fascinating character he really is. The way Nasu describes everything is fucking beautiful. I'll make a confession: Normally anime and manga do not invoke strong emotions in me. My huge rage at Ikki is mostly just to stir up his fans for a debate, as this forum is pretty dead at times. But F/SN (& TH) have made me cry at multiple occasions. God, I'm such a fucking pussy, but I can't help it.

The anime also failed to explain why Shirou is so damn good at projecting swords. It's because of the fact that his mentality is like a sword itself. He protects others by sacrificing himself. The ultimate truth for those who walk that path is called Unlimited Blade Works. That is Shirou's power. But he only unlocks it's full potential in UBW path.

That's what makes a good character. Deep story and good explanations. Not MY FRIENDS & SHINIGAMI or TAKE A DUMP & WINGS.

I have no idea why I'm blabbering so much about Shirou all of a sudden, man I'm dick-riding Nasu harder than Simca & folks do with Ikki. Pathetic

Here, have a UBW Shirou:
http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv43/JIBUNWOO/1234811335552.jpg?t=1241633404

Oh, and iMeh. When you decide to play it, don't be afraid to ask for help in installing it if you need it. VNs can be tricky at times. Especially the longer ones like F/SN.

.....Well, this was fucking off-topic. I apologize for my raging T-M fanboyism.

Can't find a place to download it, lol.