Do you think Kogorasamaru will be able to beat the old sleeping forest [Archive]

Abel

08-16-2008, 08:41 PM

I was going to post an extreamly one sided arguement as to why they would have to win in order to continue the plot, but then I realised that I'd look fairly idiotic if they lost.

Does it really matter about the teams? I thought that it'll be Kogarasumaru trying to get the balloon before the 30 minutes are up and SF are to try stop them or something. I don't know but if they were to fight I'd agree that Ikki, Agito and Kazu would win and maybe Buccha (to get the win and not a draw) because he hasn't been shown winning yet.

Licurgus

08-16-2008, 09:52 PM

Ok here are my 2 cents. Sorry I couldn't find a nickel.

OG may do alot of plot manipulation to get this fight to go Koga's way. But in some ways I think that has been the case in every underdog story ever. Koga is an underdog but they have heart, determination, an iron will, and desire. A team with these things can only get better and find ways of using what they have to win.

I mean really if the Mammoth Cube fight had not become a tag team fight Koga would have lost. Agito was a minute away from losing in that fight and that would have been the end of it. Every match Koga has used its teamwork and the things mentioned above to do all they can. As for this match...Koga will win but it will be close and it will be the teamwork of Koga that will help them to win. Not their individual skills.

Besides every time someone says "So O.G. will plotkai the shit out of this battle" I die a little on the inside, cause you have no clue what OG will do. You have no freaking clue what will happen. So stop saying hes going to "plotkai" shit when in reality this whole story could be called that.

...*sighs* Sorry I hate it when someone speaks negatively without giving basis and reason. :no::(

-Licurgus

jiraiya96

08-16-2008, 10:41 PM

i think they'll just use the fact that the SF knows nothing aside from falco. surprise attack for quick win with one or two impressive tricks in between. ikki and koga know way too much about some of the members of SF so there's no way they won't use it to their advantage. case in point what ikki did to get sora and kilik to join the battle.

mapaxe

08-16-2008, 11:30 PM

juanchoh

08-17-2008, 12:07 AM

Koga vs SF will be a balloon battle so there really won't be any head to head fights like in the cube, rather they will be chasing the balloon and the first to get it wins. I dont think we will see head to head fights unless this senario will happen... Members of Koga/SF hold back the members of the other team and leave Ikki and Sora to go after the balloon. If that happens we will probably see a battle like that between Ikki and Ringo at the start where they don't really battle each other directly but try to slow down the other.

Of course we are pretty sure Koga will win or even if they dont some weird bordering on stupid thing will happen where they will still get into the GST or at the least not end up paralized. The fun par is we dont know what exactly will happen so all theories are welcome and lets strap in for the ride!

PS im pretty sure Ikki will find a way to "break free" from the strict rules of the battle... Personally i think that is why he was named the Storm King since he manages to sweep away everything and in the words of Spitfire that is what a storm rider is or should be

Lukannon

08-17-2008, 12:49 AM

Realistically speaking, Koga can't win. Ikki and Agito might be at the level of their predecessors, but Kazu is only now catching up to handicapped Spitfire, and if Lind is any indication, Falco should also be beating Agito handily.

That said, I agree with those who say that Koga's probably going to trash the rules somehow.

Carnevil

08-17-2008, 02:52 AM

Ok here are my 2 cents. Sorry I couldn't find a nickel.

Besides every time someone says "So O.G. will plotkai the shit out of this battle" I die a little on the inside, cause you have no clue what OG will do. You have no freaking clue what will happen. So stop saying hes going to "plotkai" shit when in reality this whole story could be called that.

...*sighs* Sorry I hate it when someone speaks negatively without giving basis and reason. :no::(

-Licurgus

Woah, calm down dude no reason to get upset.
My comment might have been a little harsh I'll admit that. But I've been reading O.G's. work since 1999, that's nine years, I'm a little more cynical then most. I have seen him plotkai the shit out of stuff before, but you're right I don't know what will happen. I let my cynical nature get the better of me, O.G. has surprised me in the past. If he didn't keep surprising me I wouldn't have stayed a fan all these years.

I did give a good reason why he'd have to plotkai, if you look at the power and skill level, S.F. totally outclasses Koga. Koga has 3 kings only one of which has regalia, S.F. has 8 all of which have regalia. That and S.F. is made up of G.C. they were born to ride A.T's and are considered natural kings. But I'll tell you what, if O.G. doesn't pull out the plotkai monster for this battle, I'll apologize for my plotkai comment.

Lukannon

08-17-2008, 03:12 AM

Agito doesn't wear the Fang Regalia, I do hope you know.

Carnevil

08-17-2008, 03:52 AM

Agito doesn't wear the Fang Regalia, I do hope you know.

Was justing point out that he had them.

tonember

08-17-2008, 06:33 AM

of course they will beat them...

burnedalive

08-17-2008, 01:19 PM

remember , kilik defeat sora and end in a draw with nike , in the side of kilik was , gabichi, om and 1 of the king's (maybe blackburn)

I think agito wins , ikki end in a draw with sora , but I don't think kazu beat spit is too early (and spit has a regalia) , the others members , end in a owned way , but I think they have a very good perfomance.

Spit's not joining in. It's a 6 v 6 with spit and ine playing odd man out.

That said, I think it will be Koga's victory. I don't know how OG! would pull off a loss for Koga.

remanzuo

08-17-2008, 03:14 PM

Remember one thing, Agito is the only one with Regalia. Sleeping Forest has all 8 or atleast they should. You also have to remember Klik. he took out 6 kings all by himself. But none of that matters, Koga has to win or they won't get into the tournament and they'll be crippled.

Wow...you think Kilik is a superman / captain america / rambo ?
1 man beat the crap out of his entire enemies

If Kilik can take out the other Kings by himself,
why do he need to summon Gabishi, Om and two other GC ?
L.O.L

remember , kilik defeat sora and end in a draw with nike , in the side of kilik was , gabichi, om and 1 of the king's (maybe blackburn)

Black Burn is on Sora's side along with Spitfire, Dontores and Falco

Koga vs SF will be a balloon battle so there really won't be any head to head fights like in the cube, rather they will be chasing the balloon and the first to get it wins. I dont think we will see head to head fights unless this senario will happen... Members of Koga/SF hold back the members of the other team and leave Ikki and Sora to go after the balloon.

let's see the roles of the team in A-Class: "Balloon"

The "panther" chases the balloon,
the "decoy" lures enemies away,
the "ultimate" is responsible for fighting and disarming the enemy,
the "middle" assists the others
the "keeper" stops enemies before they grab the goal.

So, there will be a head on fight definetly
from the previous chapter, the battle would probably be Agito and Ikki vs Sora and Kilik

keeper probably Buccha
assist maybe Emily
decoy probably Onigiri ( what else can he does ? )
panther should be Kazu ( the fastest runner )

Lukannon

08-17-2008, 04:02 PM

Not so much head on fights as skirmishes while getting the balloon, I'd say.

silveray7

08-17-2008, 06:37 PM

Even though Koga will, "old" SF is gonna give one hell of a battle.

airgearagear

08-17-2008, 08:04 PM

Yup i agree..cant wait 4 next chap.

Nameless337

08-18-2008, 11:45 PM

I think that realistically if they were all 1v1 matches they should have no chance. I think its very intersting that all three kings of Kogarsumaru (Ikki, Agito, and Kazu) have all demonstrated amazing new abilities in chapters just prior to this battle (Agito vs. Orca and Ikki vs. Kazu). These new abilities will no doubt play a part in the fight, but the fact remains that everyone has had a much harder time with enemies of much lower skill.

That said, I don't see a way that Kogarasumaru can lose this match. Their best chance is the loose rules of the balloon match. It seems to me to leave plenty of room for interpretation. Much like the way Ikki defeated Buccha, underhanded tactics won't exactly mean disqualification in this match. Their other chance is that every member of SF except for Falko (and I hope Spitfire ^_^) are nothing but computer programs. All the members of Kogarasumaru are at least familiar with the basics of the 8 roads, while the members of SF will completely underestimate them.

Who knows this is just my two cents, feel free to shoot my theories full of holes :P. I can't wait for the next chapter, this is the best manga series ever.

Zwölf

08-19-2008, 05:16 PM

so liek

i guess i'll be the first to say that between SF and kogas there is one huge advantage that koga has.

The original Sleeping Forest has no idea of Koga's abilities in parts wars. Koga on the other hand know a lot more bout SF that SF about koga.

That is one very important thing to consider in this fight. "Victory favors those with the best strategy" supposedly right? Not only that Koga al;ready knows what it means to lose and what it means to win. SF.. well in this case... its computer generated.

I wont be too harsh or adverse bout the plotkai thing but in this case... this fight can go both ways because of what we know thus far. Yes one does outmatch the other in terms of ability. but the other team outmatches the other in preemptive information about the other team.

my 3 cents.

Go kogarasumaru! :P

juanchoh

08-19-2008, 07:26 PM

SF.. well in this case... its computer generated.

This is a good point, since the SF here is simply a simulation of what they were at the time, then it is still governed by the set rules of the program. Koga as we know is notorious for breaking free of the set rules and going their own way. If you look at it this way, this has been the plot of AG ever since, an established rules vs a free spirited force.

Kind of reminds you of the matrix where you have this extremely powerful agents vs weaker people. But like morpheus said, they are governed by the rules of the system and as such can never be as strong as you

saheton

08-20-2008, 05:50 AM

t260z

08-20-2008, 12:25 PM

On the totally possible chance that Koga could lose, couldn't someone hack the programs from the outside to downgrade the performance of Sf or upgrade Kg?

t260z

08-20-2008, 12:27 PM

How come everyones forgetting all the training they did with "spitfire". the whole purpose of that program was to prepare to win against SF and Genesis. Besides as it has been said, you can bet that they have dirt on some of the members of sleeping forest that they will put to their advantage (well maybe not all of them but definitely on rika)

I almost forgot about that, they could turn Kilik against sora midway during the match since Kilik doesn't know about Sora using the Sky regalia yet.

Reincarnation

08-22-2008, 02:44 PM

if kazu doesnt step up they will get trashed but even if he does i see no way for them to win because when it comes to abilities the old SF completely stomps

they will lose the fight but they will inspire falco and he'll give them the antidote

RICECM

08-22-2008, 09:35 PM

Reincarnation

08-22-2008, 10:40 PM

I don't think Kogarasamaru as a whole can beat them. I do believe Agito and Ikki can take out at least 3 members together. The reason I say this is because this battle is that of the mind. Weak minded, underconfident people like Kazu will get eaten alive. Air headed people like Onigiri and Buccha will get owned, and mindless girls who follow after a spinless loser like Kazu will get smashed.lol ur kazu hate is strong i would defend him but he did have a pretty big inferiority complex.

but i think u should know that kazu is no longer the Spineless loser he used to be and thier are many scenecs in the manga that proves this ^^

_______________________________________________

but anyway im gonna stick to koga getting stomped :(

cause IMO they have no chance

Xemnas

08-22-2008, 11:19 PM

Recent events seem to show that Kazu hasn't changed all that much, but thats outside of battle so we'll see

RICECM

08-23-2008, 12:03 AM

lol ur kazu hate is strong i would defend him but he did have a pretty big inferiority complex.

but i think u should know that kazu is no longer the Spineless loser he used to be and thier are many scenecs in the manga that proves this ^^

_______________________________________________

but anyway im gonna stick to koga getting stomped :(

cause IMO they have no chance

Yea man, but somethings gotta happen cuz this is a matter of life and death here. AG would have a shitty ending if they died here. At least ikki and agito live or somethin.

Reincarnation

08-23-2008, 03:06 AM

Recent events seem to show that Kazu hasn't changed all that much, but thats outside of battle so we'll seeim having a hard time understanding how u came to the conclusion :(

Yea man, but somethings gotta happen cuz this is a matter of life and death here. AG would have a shitty ending if they died here. At least ikki and agito live or somethin.lol man no one is gonna die ^^

IMO koga will get stomped (but not to bad hopefully)and everything will come down to wether or not falco beileves in them or not

i guarantee u that we will get some crappy and confusing speech from falco about how strong and inspiring ikki's wind is

it's classic O!G style....overpower and hype the main character and for get about everybody else. Though he has done a good job with agito

but u gotta love em though the man is one hell of an artist :)

Teirce

08-23-2008, 04:00 AM

im having a hard time understanding how u came to the conclusion :(

lol man no one is gonna die ^^

IMO koga will get stomped (but not to bad hopefully)and everything will come down to wether or not falco beileves in them or not

i guarantee u that will get some crappy and confusing speech from falco about how strong and inspiring ikki's wind is

it's classic O!G style....overpower and hype the main character and for get about everybody else. Though he has done a good job with agito

but u gotta love em though the man is one hell of an artist :)

^ ^ ^ Pretty much, yeah.

WraithX959

08-23-2008, 01:25 PM

Kogarasamaru has to win, If they don't they won't be able to enter the GST. Then there would be nothing stopping Sora from getting the Sky Regailia. Ikki & the gang will win. One thing you have to account for is the fact that this is a young Sleeping Forest & most likely not as powerful as they currently are. Kilik beat Sora easily the last time they faced each other, I doubt that would happen again. Especially, with Kilik without a regalia.

It won't be easy, but Kogarasamaru will win. This arc will also highlight the growth of the other members of Kogarasamaru. They haven't been doing all that training for nothing. Buccha, Onigiri & Emily may be intimidated, but they're stronger then they know.

Lukannon

08-23-2008, 04:59 PM

The original Sleeping Forest is proving themselves to be near invincible here. There's notreally a whole lot Koga can do sort of completely wrecking the rules...and by rules, I mean 'laws of reality.'

Sleeping Forest is faster, stronger, smarter, and more importantly, their teamwork is amazing. Koga cannot realistically beat them, period. It's a 100% chance of defeat.

Of course, since when has realism ever mattered in shounen.

Tanbird

08-23-2008, 05:41 PM

uhhh. yeah just saying I really believe that in a fair fight koga would give sleeping forest a run for their money. The only people I'm worried about with koga are buccha ( he seems to have no drive), emily (too inexperienced, but she has like an immense amount of strength so meh), and onigiri unless he confronts a female.but we haven't seem them fight in a while so yeah.......... and even if they aren't that strong I can say one thing plotkai of course.

jmason14

08-23-2008, 08:14 PM

well after seeing 214 I think we wont have to worry about kazu being nervous lol. Though I think sf will win but falco just gives them the antidote because they were good enough to go to the gs.

windwaker

08-24-2008, 04:14 PM

yea, koga are pretty much screwed. Although i think as far as individual skill goes, the two teams are not too far apart.

But it seems nobody is mentioning that every single one of them has an optimally tuned regalia while Koga only has one.

and when people are talking about their teamwork, i can easily see Koga coming up with combo moves on the fly.

Lukannon

08-24-2008, 09:32 PM

Sky King 324

08-24-2008, 09:47 PM

The problem with that is that Koga's already lost the initiative. They have three riders that have no special skills, and three with skills inferior to their counterparts. Unplanned teamwork is not something that Koga does not have, at the very least Agito and Ikki are quite good at it, but the problem is that it's essentially 6 vs 4 so they'll probably never get the chance to pull it off.

I can see what your talking about but the part about 3 with skills inferior to their counter parts is all wrong because ikki beat sora's distance on the devils 30 showing he had a stronger wind. kazu is able to do the same tricks a spitfire and he learned them in only a few months. and agito can beat falko because when he gets weak enough he'll turn into lind and we only got to see a couple of his tricks in the manga.

windwaker

08-24-2008, 11:55 PM

hey now, buccha may not have any special skills, but ill say its unwise to underestimate his strength, hes been training a lot as well. And maybe Onigiri will pull some crazy shit on rika.

Lukannon

08-25-2008, 12:06 AM

I can see what your talking about but the part about 3 with skills inferior to their counter parts is all wrong because ikki beat sora's distance on the devils 30 showing he had a stronger wind. kazu is able to do the same tricks a spitfire and he learned them in only a few months. and agito can beat falko because when he gets weak enough he'll turn into lind and we only got to see a couple of his tricks in the manga.

Eh? Ikki jumped farther, but that doesn't prove anything; he did it even before Sora taught him the Wing Road, which instantly lets both of them jump infinitely far, so who cares. Sora's more experienced with the Wing Road, is more familiar with it, and has all the natural advantages of a Gravity Child.

As for Kazu, he's only catching up to the skills of Spitfire after he was crippled...and that's certainly not going to be enough to take on the Kings of Sleeping Forest in their prime.

And even though Lind is pretty haxxx, that's no guarantee he can beat Falco. Even if Lind's amazing, he's still essentially a Gravity Child. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether or not Falco can do the cage of fangs like his successors, but when he can fire fangs at that rate with that little wind-up, it's hardly even a factor since he can stop any forward motion including what's required for a fang.

windwaker

08-25-2008, 02:38 AM

I think agito hasnt been completely outclassed just yet. I mean Falco's fangs, while great in number, werent really that powerful, they just took out kazus illusions and knocked him back a bit...he didnt even seem hurt. And everybody knows that due to his stamina problems, agito cant produce tons of fangs, but instead makes the fangs he does launch more powerful. Until we see Falco knock down a building or what not, i wouldnt count agito out just yet.

Lukannon

08-25-2008, 04:13 PM

Eh? They don't need to be great in number. A web of fangs launched in an instant can't end a match like Agito's killer fang, but it's got massive strategic value; even a Wing Road rider would be hardpressed to dodge all those fangs in midair, and as demonstrated, even if it doesn't really hurt the opponent that much, it can interrupt their attacks very well.

Air Treck is an activity that is heavily reliant on speed and momentum, and affecting that from a distance is incredibly effective.

windwaker

08-25-2008, 05:02 PM

Lukannon

08-25-2008, 05:31 PM

Agito's fang has so much wind-up Falco can release his own more powerful version. And Buccha COULD bull through, but he's so slow and bulky that Falco can just Bloody Road him to shreds. For someone like Ikki, who's normal-sized and also fast AND can tank through, it's not nearly as useful, but Falco can easily trade speed for power simply by increasing his wind-up, and as a Wing Road rider it can pretty easily cut through his wind.

Remember, Falco did this as if it was NOTHING. Not only was it very little wind-up, he fired the fangs backwards from the knee without even moving his body, and without even changing his facial expression. The fact is, he has many more options than Agito.

Zwölf

08-25-2008, 05:40 PM

Im gonna go with my first opinion again.

Koga will win.

There will be no pity invite to the GST andd Falco will not let them enter based on their will to win.

To think Kogarasumaru will lose and enter do to new found respect is pretty disgusting in my opinion. Kogarasumaru will win by a landslide I think hahaa. sounds crazy huh.

The loss that kogarasumaru needed to have to "shape up" has already happened. It was against the Boss red's team of Osirus.

To plot out a very close defeat would be retarded of Oh!Great.

therefore i think the Old Sleeping forest does nto stand a chance against koga.

25cents and 3 pennies

windwaker

08-25-2008, 06:03 PM

But luke, by that logic, couldnt agito just as easily make as many weak fangs by decreasing his wind up? i mean doesnt that work both ways?

And until i see falcos Mega fang, im not making any assumptions about the power of his fangs. (not to mention that with all of agitos dedication, and all the time hes put into his "one killer fang" id like to think that he wouldnt be overpowered like that )

And, id also say that the backwards position is more condusive to fast fangs...since its faster to move your knee then your entire leg.

Lukannon

08-25-2008, 06:25 PM

Eh? I'm not making any assumptions, not any unreasonable ones anyway. I don't know whether Falco has a knock-out fang or not, but he definitely has a STRONGER one(if indeed his multiple fangs are not that strong) since that's the basis of the fang in the first place. Akira's level, if not higher; that's the entire point of the fang, it's not meant to be multiple weak blows, it's meant to be a single powerful projectile. It's the same with Spitfire being able to use Afterburner even if we've never seen him do it; it's a core skill of the Road, so there's no way they CAN'T do it.

Agito can't necessarily launch that many fangs because we've never seen him do it. That's all there is to it, he's never demonstrated the same capabilities as Falco. The POINT of Falco being amazing is that he can launch those fangs with so little wind-up in such a short time; if I thought it was as simple as lowering wind-up, I wouldn't have rated Falco so highly. Remember Agito's explanation? Launching a fang requires momentum, and the more you have, the more powerful it is. The corollary to that is that the less momentum you have, the less distance and wind-up you have, the less powerful it is...until eventually there's a threshold where you can't even generate enough speed and power to create a fang at all. That's why Falco is so amazing. He's accurately targeting Kazu while looking over his back and launching fangs from the KNEE. That's never ever been demonstrated before, there's never been a fang launched from the knee before, it's even specifically said that the stress of the sudden acceleration and decceleration needed to generate the fang relies on the powerful muscles of the thigh and it has been demonstrated to destroy that tissue even on a monster like Udou Akira.

THAT'S why it's amazing. A knee movement is faster, but even with that increased speed it can't make up for the loss of 70% of the acceleration distance, and the fact that Falco's muscles are powerful enough to generate the power and speed needed for a fang in what is inherently a weak action is already impressive. Then remember that he launched many, many fangs; even if they're weak, the stress on his leg must be insane. And yet he wasn't affected by it whatsoever; he launched it as though it was routine.

windwaker

08-25-2008, 06:54 PM

ah you are right! so your saying that the fact that falco can even launch any kind of fang that way is amazing...which i guess it is. And that if his lower leg muscles are that strong, then his thigh muscles should also be incredible.

i definitely see where your coming from now. I eagerly await a more traditional fang from falco then. But still, i think that Agito is specifically dedicated to the whole "one fang" thing, since he said it somewhere during his training, and made it sound like his combat philosophy. Due to this i hope that Agito can put his money where his mouth is, and even if hes weaker in general to falco, i hope he pulls out a wicked powerful fang that would at the very least make falco sweat.

sabret00the

08-25-2008, 07:45 PM

In regards to Agito versus Faclo: Agito's problem with stamina is due to the way in which he uses the fangs. It's like when you see an ametuer fight a pro using the same style of fighting, the amatuer will tend to use a lot of unnessesary movements. However Falco has managed to compress the movement. If you look at his Fang Web against Kazu, he only seems to spin in a half circle and create enough power to let rip seven fangs. So while Agito may have his sure fire fang, if he's able to learn from Falco, stamina won't be an issue any longer and he'll be able to at least produce mini fangs that won't sap his strength. I'd hate to see what Falco could do with a full Agito style run up. The thought along is scary as hell.

PS. I think Koga will win. SF are using old AT and are based on old skills, The AT world has evolved. and thus the playing ground is a lot more level. If Emily, Buccha or Onigiri can invoke an IA, then things fall firmly in Koga's favour.

Lukannon

08-25-2008, 07:55 PM

Right, I don't mind Agito keeping to one fang. It's an interesting match, watching two great battle strategists whaling at each other with two trump cards in the same category that are still diametrically opposed.

but what I REALLY want to see isn't the fangs at all. I want to see Falco and Agito duke it out in a classic Bloody Road fight, riding on each other, trailing plumes of blood in the air as they struggle to keep their AT's ripping through each other's body...

Reincarnation

08-25-2008, 07:58 PM

i dont see how koga can win this fight they are all totaly out classed

sabret00the

08-25-2008, 08:12 PM

i dont see how koga can win this fight they are all totaly out classed
I'm not sure what fight you're watching but i've only seen one clean blow landed all match thus far. That's not outclassing, that's called having the opening upper hand. If they were outclassed then Killik wouldn't have praised em. The fact that he of all people acknowledged their ability, only goes to show that them losing is far from an all gone conclusion.

Lukannon

08-25-2008, 09:27 PM

Eh? You don't need to have a clean blow landed to be outclassed.

Carnevil

08-25-2008, 10:39 PM

If you look at this from a strategic stand point, S.F. tested Koga's abilities. They needed to know what they were up against, so they used a few powerful attacks to gauge Koga's potential. Now they know that Ikki is a wind user since he used a Wind wall, Agito can use Fangs and Kazu is a speed rider. They also know that the other three members of koga aren't all that strong. So now they can form a strategy to defeat them, going in blindly would have been stupid, even for a team as powerful as S.F.

But I still feel that 214 was a cliched setup for a Koga win. It happens in alot of Anime and Manga. Have the main character or characters face an opponent that nobody thinks they can beat. That way when they pull it off, everybody will be surprised and talk about how awesome the main character or characters is/are. The conversation is usually the same. "Did you see (enter main character/main characters friends/team name here) I didn't think they could beat (insert opponents name or names here). (Main characters) new (insert ridiculously named/overpowered maneuver here) was badass. (Main character) just showed why he's the best (insert what ever the hell the main character is or does).

Before anybody jumps in my case about this, this is just a feeling. O.G. does have a knack for surprising and going against the norm. So this is not a foregone conclusion. I'm hoping he has Koga get their asses handed to them. This can be the only time where they can get beat to hell and it won't cause any real harm. If this wasn't the virtual world,I could see O.G. not having them get beat down. This way they can get beat down and won't suffer any real injuries. Remember getting beat down can actually teach you more then winning, it also builds character.
All Koga has to do is impress Falco enough the let them into the tournament. What would be really ironic is if S.F. wins, but VirtuaSora tells Falco to help them, saying something like he was impressed by Ikki's abilities and hopes to fight him again. Ikki being saved by VirtuaSora, just to come back to the real world and have to defeat him, that would be good.
Sorry about the ridiculously long post, kind of happens when I'm drinking.

remanzuo

08-26-2008, 03:25 AM

But couldnt you just tank through the fangs? or intercept them?

Agito could use one powerful horizontal fang to just slice through the web of fangs couldnt he?

And if it only knocks Kazu back, couldnt buccha just bull through?

One powerful horizontal fang from Agito ?
oh...it was powerful enough that it was easily suck up by Dontores
like it was nothing
L.O.L

did you really think Falco's fang knocked Kazu back ?
Kazu retreat when he saw Falco Shoot his fang
L.O.L

sabret00the

08-26-2008, 05:32 AM

Eh? You don't need to have a clean blow landed to be outclassed.
Because in a boxing match, when you say one person outclassed the other, you normally have one person dodging and parrying the other blows while getting in clean hits and the other person seems to go all out without landing a blow. that's not happened here. there is no oooooh SF are killing Koga right now.

Lukannon

08-26-2008, 10:02 AM

One powerful horizontal fang from Agito ?
oh...it was powerful enough that it was easily suck up by Dontores
like it was nothing
L.O.L

Using that as a comparison is a little unfair. The Ram Jet theory only functions at all when the wind is extremely fast, so it's actually a testament to the fang's power that Dontores was able to suck it in without arm movement. The Rumble Road specializes in negating wind-based power, so it's no surprise that something that powerful could be sucked in so easily.

did you really think Falco's fang knocked Kazu back ?
Kazu retreat when he saw Falco Shoot his fang

hm, if that's true, Falco really is a beast.

Because in a boxing match, when you say one person outclassed the other, you normally have one person dodging and parrying the other blows while getting in clean hits and the other person seems to go all out without landing a blow. that's not happened here. there is no oooooh SF are killing Koga right now.

Who cares about boxing here? This isn't as simple as swinging your fist and hitting or not hitting.

sabret00the

08-26-2008, 12:33 PM

Who cares about boxing here? This isn't as simple as swinging your fist and hitting or not hitting.
It's a relevant example, please don't be ignorant. You talk about one opponent outclassing the other, i tell you that no one was outclassed, you ask me how and i give you an example. If you feel that strongly about Koga being outclassed then please give me an example? Falco hitting Kazu? That's right, never happened. Killik crushing the whole team with the tower? Nope never happened. Blackburn and Sora's joint attack hitting anyone? Again, never happened. Erm ok, what are we left with? That's right a single set of blows by Rika on Buccha and Emily of which they got up and walked away from.

You wanna talk about the class system, you only need to look at the fact that already three of the sleeping forest team are using their trump cards, i.e. Killik is using the Gem Regalia, Sora is using the Bagram and Dontores is using the Rumble Regalia.

And what are Koga using? Oh that's right, normal AT.

sabret00the

08-26-2008, 12:44 PM

[double post]

windwaker

08-26-2008, 01:39 PM

One powerful horizontal fang from Agito ?
oh...it was powerful enough that it was easily suck up by Dontores
like it was nothing
L.O.L

did you really think Falco's fang knocked Kazu back ?
Kazu retreat when he saw Falco Shoot his fang
L.O.L

Just cuz dontores sucked it up, doesnt mean it wasnt powerful...it still sliced through a freakin building.

And when i saw him clumsily flying through the air..yes i did think the fang knocked him back.

but if he didnt then thats even better...since that means falco didnt even get a hit on him.

Reincarnation

08-26-2008, 05:36 PM

I'm not sure what fight you're watching but i've only seen one clean blow landed all match thus far. That's not outclassing, that's called having the opening upper hand. If they were outclassed then Killik wouldn't have praised em. The fact that he of all people acknowledged their ability, only goes to show that them losing is far from an all gone conclusion.
falco effortlessly made agito, kogas stongest member look like shit imagine what he would do if he were serious...and on top of that he was far from the strongest of the old SF

if koga wins this fight it wont make any sense :(

sabret00the

08-26-2008, 05:41 PM

falco effortlessly made agito, kogas stongest member look like shit imagine what he would do if he were serious...and on top of that he was far from the strongest of the old SF

if koga wins this fight it wont make any sense :(
I'm sorry, i disagree about Agito being Koga's strongest member. Even Agito disagrees with that. And while Falco's Fangs were more impressive. I'm not sure how they made Agito look like shit.

Reincarnation

08-26-2008, 05:43 PM

I'm sorry, i disagree about Agito being Koga's strongest member. Even Agito disagrees with that. And while Falco's Fangs were more impressive. I'm not sure how they made Agito look like shit.
when did agito agree to not being the strongest ???

plus he is the only guy on the team with a regaila

sabret00the

08-26-2008, 05:44 PM

when did agito agree to not being the strongest ???

plus he is the only guy on the team with a regaila
A regalia isn't strength. Surely the whole Ikki versus Kazu mini-arc underlined that.

Also Agito done it when he asked Ikki to defeat him should Rind takeover the body again.

Reincarnation

08-26-2008, 05:56 PM

A regalia isn't strength. Surely the whole Ikki versus Kazu mini-arc underlined that.

Also Agito done it when he asked Ikki to defeat him should Rind takeover the body again.
agito a can shoot any type of fang he wants to without the reagila ...u dont think his strength an power would increase 10 fold with it ???

sabret00the

08-26-2008, 05:58 PM

agito a can shoot any type of fang he wants to without the reagila ...u dont think his strength an power would increase 10 fold with it ???
Agito seems to feel his body was relying on the regalia. As we have things with Falco, he doesn't appear to have activated the regalia as of yet.

Reincarnation

08-26-2008, 06:02 PM

Agito seems to feel his body was relying on the regalia. As we have things with Falco, he doesn't appear to have activated the regalia as of yet.yes and that is why i think he trained so much without and it is also the reason why i beleive that the strength of his fangs would be unmatchable by anyone...unles they are of old SF caliber :)
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Lukannon

08-26-2008, 07:58 PM

It's a relevant example, please don't be ignorant. You talk about one opponent outclassing the other, i tell you that no one was outclassed, you ask me how and i give you an example. If you feel that strongly about Koga being outclassed then please give me an example? Falco hitting Kazu? That's right, never happened. Killik crushing the whole team with the tower? Nope never happened. Blackburn and Sora's joint attack hitting anyone? Again, never happened. Erm ok, what are we left with? That's right a single set of blows by Rika on Buccha and Emily of which they got up and walked away from.

You wanna talk about the class system, you only need to look at the fact that already three of the sleeping forest team are using their trump cards, i.e. Killik is using the Gem Regalia, Sora is using the Bagram and Dontores is using the Rumble Regalia.

And what are Koga using? Oh that's right, normal AT.

Don't accuse me of being ignorant; you're the one who can't let go of your irrelevant standards for judging a fight. You're saying, 'there's not been a single clean blow landed, therefore they aren't that much better.' No, landing a clean blow has never been a criteria for being better; you look too much at the results of the fight and not at the actual fight itself. Sleeping Forest has demonstrated power and technique that far outstrip Koga's, therefore they outclass them. If two boxers never land a blow, but one is leaning out of the hits with ease and the other is struggling to avoid one, it's already clear which one is better. It's the same here, albeit the fact that in this case we can actually measure the strength of their blows without them landing.

And sure, it's true that Sleeping Forest is using their Regalia. And? It's not like I don't see that it's an uneven fight, but a person's AT is also a part of their ability. It's irrelevant by how much they're better(if they are) without the Regalia; the fact is, they HAVE the Regalia.

agito a can shoot any type of fang he wants to without the reagila ...u dont think his strength an power would increase 10 fold with it ???

The Fang Regalia's not really as useful as you'd think. It limits things like the jump function in exchange for efficiency at capturing the energy of the 0-100-0 movement...but even if Agito got a stronger fang, it'd be overkill, and he'd limit his ability outside of those Fangs.

For Agito, who can't use that many fangs and already compensated for that weakness by creating a super powerful one, a normal AT is probably better.

And, of course, it's a lie to say Agito can shoot any type of fang he wants...

sabret00the

08-27-2008, 05:25 AM

Don't accuse me of being ignorant; you're the one who can't let go of your irrelevant standards for judging a fight. You're saying, 'there's not been a single clean blow landed, therefore they aren't that much better.' No, landing a clean blow has never been a criteria for being better; you look too much at the results of the fight and not at the actual fight itself. Sleeping Forest has demonstrated power and technique that far outstrip Koga's, therefore they outclass them. If two boxers never land a blow, but one is leaning out of the hits with ease and the other is struggling to avoid one, it's already clear which one is better. It's the same here, albeit the fact that in this case we can actually measure the strength of their blows without them landing.

And sure, it's true that Sleeping Forest is using their Regalia. And? It's not like I don't see that it's an uneven fight, but a person's AT is also a part of their ability. It's irrelevant by how much they're better(if they are) without the Regalia; the fact is, they HAVE the Regalia.

But you are being ignorant because you're ignoring the analogy due to the fact that you don't like it. Thus far this fight isn't about landing blows, only one blows been landed and you can't judge any fight based on that unless it's a OHKO.

Thus far you can say that Sleeping Forest are aesthetically the better team and even that's subjective. To use another example; if this was a dancing competition then aesthetics would be all that mattered. But it's not and thus they're not all that matters. Thus far in fact while Sleeping Forest have been jumping around like lunatics and using high power moves that destroy the landscape, Koga are using purposeful moves to directly achieve their goal. There's nothing wrong with efficiency. If i lose my phone in my house and my friend loses his phone in his house. He destroys his house to find the phone, while i look for mine slowly but surely, is it automatically said he outclassed me?

Another great example was the Hatton versus Mayweather fight. Hatton came out of the box firing and as i was watching the fight reading comments on the net, people were talking about how he'd win. I just smiled, a few rounds later with Ricky still throwing punches (all of which were failing to connect by the way) Mayweather steps up and takes control of the fight to win by knockout. That's what you call outclassing.

Thus far outclassing isn't even a relevant word for this fight. You can say that they're the most impressive in terms of their prowess, but we've yet to see what Koga are even capable of yet.

Lukannon

08-27-2008, 09:48 AM

But you are being ignorant because you're ignoring the analogy due to the fact that you don't like it. Thus far this fight isn't about landing blows, only one blows been landed and you can't judge any fight based on that unless it's a OHKO.

Thus far you can say that Sleeping Forest are aesthetically the better team and even that's subjective. To use another example; if this was a dancing competition then aesthetics would be all that mattered. But it's not and thus they're not all that matters. Thus far in fact while Sleeping Forest have been jumping around like lunatics and using high power moves that destroy the landscape, Koga are using purposeful moves to directly achieve their goal. There's nothing wrong with efficiency. If i lose my phone in my house and my friend loses his phone in his house. He destroys his house to find the phone, while i look for mine slowly but surely, is it automatically said he outclassed me?

Another great example was the Hatton versus Mayweather fight. Hatton came out of the box firing and as i was watching the fight reading comments on the net, people were talking about how he'd win. I just smiled, a few rounds later with Ricky still throwing punches (all of which were failing to connect by the way) Mayweather steps up and takes control of the fight to win by knockout. That's what you call outclassing.

Thus far outclassing isn't even a relevant word for this fight. You can say that they're the most impressive in terms of their prowess, but we've yet to see what Koga are even capable of yet.

Purposeful movements to achieve their goals? You must be blind. Koga has almost continually been on the defensive; even their few instances of offense were completely and effortlessly shut down. The peons didn't do anything; Kazu's big improvement was rendered useless, Agito's killer fang(which isn't efficient at all as it can't be used much) was completely destroyed. Even Ikki never managed to make it to the offensive. Your phone analogy is completely flawed, because it assumes there's unnecessary waste in Sleeping Forest's tactics; there isn't. Your analogy with the match WOULD work, except for the fact that there's a difference between tanking through attacks for a haymaker and literally being pushed...and in this case it's the latter.

Sleeping Forest has demonstrated prowess beyond Koga. You can make that judgment by looking at Koga's past fights, and also by looking at their current situation. It's stupid to say you can't judge anything until a blow has been landed when measurements of both power and skill are right there in front of you.

sabret00the

08-27-2008, 10:54 AM

Purposeful movements to achieve their goals? You must be blind. Koga has almost continually been on the defensive; even their few instances of offense were completely and effortlessly shut down. The peons didn't do anything; Kazu's big improvement was rendered useless, Agito's killer fang(which isn't efficient at all as it can't be used much) was completely destroyed. Even Ikki never managed to make it to the offensive. Your phone analogy is completely flawed, because it assumes there's unnecessary waste in Sleeping Forest's tactics; there isn't. Your analogy with the match WOULD work, except for the fact that there's a difference between tanking through attacks for a haymaker and literally being pushed...and in this case it's the latter.

Sleeping Forest has demonstrated prowess beyond Koga. You can make that judgment by looking at Koga's past fights, and also by looking at their current situation. It's stupid to say you can't judge anything until a blow has been landed when measurements of both power and skill are right there in front of you.
You're using a measurement of power to decide the match. Isn't that the same thing Falco attempted to do at the start of the match and was dismissed for it. You talk about being on the defensive well what about the fact that Falco had to defend Kazu's hit, also Dontores had to defend Agito's. And then there's Ikki who defended against Sora/Blackburn. Thus far the only clean blow is that of Rika's and both teams had to attack. I don't understand why you are so determined about the fact that SF are outclassing Koga because they look aesthetically better. But i disagree. To be honest, i don't think we will ever agree on this one. I feel a book isn't to be judged by it's cover, you feel overwise, we'll have to wait to the conclusion of the match to see who was right.

Lukannon

08-27-2008, 11:00 AM

sabret00the

08-27-2008, 11:07 AM

Hm? There's a difference between saying 'one person is better' and saying 'one person will win.' You seem to be mistaking my statements. Behemoth outclassed Kogarasumaru. That's not something you can deny, and yet Kogarasumaru won.

And as I said, the difference in the defensive stances is that SF completely shut down their attacks with no effort.
Koga beat Behemoth on a self imposed technicality. Everyone [from Koga] got dominated from start to finish bar Ikki and Onigiri. In my opinion, we won't see a repeat of that at all. Even if it's a close match.

zzander

08-27-2008, 02:42 PM

yeah i think they will because they are better and modern skates

Lukannon

08-27-2008, 06:03 PM

Koga beat Behemoth on a self imposed technicality. Everyone [from Koga] got dominated from start to finish bar Ikki and Onigiri. In my opinion, we won't see a repeat of that at all. Even if it's a close match.

Eh? I'm not saying it's going to be a repeat either, but that's not the point.

juanchoh

08-27-2008, 11:07 PM

You're using a measurement of power to decide the match. Isn't that the same thing Falco attempted to do at the start of the match and was dismissed for it. You talk about being on the defensive well what about the fact that Falco had to defend Kazu's hit, also Dontores had to defend Agito's. And then there's Ikki who defended against Sora/Blackburn. Thus far the only clean blow is that of Rika's and both teams had to attack. I don't understand why you are so determined about the fact that SF are outclassing Koga because they look aesthetically better. But i disagree. To be honest, i don't think we will ever agree on this one. I feel a book isn't to be judged by it's cover, you feel overwise, we'll have to wait to the conclusion of the match to see who was right.

I guess you can say that at the moment SF has the upper hand on Koga as most of us expected them to. I wouldnt go so far as to say that they are Out classing Koga though. You have to admit though that "on paper" they pretty much out class koga. But as can be seen so far I'd say they have a pretty even fight right about now and SF might have a slight advantage at the moment. I dont think this will be a judge of their ultimate potential though. As far as i see it both teams seem to be on the Feeling out each other stage.

Its one of the principal rules of a fight that you dont go out with everything you got at the start. Normally you would try to feel out the opponent and see what you need to do as regards them. In my opinion thats all that has happened. SF launched the initial barrage and Koga countered. No clear winners at the moment but they have confirmed something. That is that they will have to get serious if they want to win.

sabret00the

08-28-2008, 05:52 AM

Based on new information (the summary from 215), it would appear that SF were just showing off their power and that in order to be taken seriously, Koga felt they had to do the same, however, it would appear that Koga purposely held back Onigiri, Buccha and Emily. Do they have roads now? We'll have to wait and see but it's interesting to speculate on. Especially as Ikki weren't happy that they had to sacrifice the info on what roads they rode in order to be taken seriously.

The true match starts next week (Trick 216).

-king-

08-28-2008, 08:56 AM

yes they will own them thats how all good anime end

sabret00the

08-28-2008, 12:08 PM

yes they will own them thats how all good anime end
End? we're just getting started!

silveray7

08-29-2008, 05:04 PM

The best has still yet to come.

Zwölf

09-05-2008, 05:59 PM

i'll say it again. Kogarasumaru will own the old Sleeping forest. there wont be any pity invites to no GST.

sabret00the

09-06-2008, 07:33 AM

i'll say it again. Kogarasumaru will own the old Sleeping forest. there wont be any pity invites to no GST.
I'm 100% with you. Though i do think it'll be pretty close.

Reincarnation

09-06-2008, 11:09 AM

lol man no one is gonna die ^^

IMO koga will get stomped (but not to bad hopefully)and everything will come down to wether or not falco beileves in them or not

i guarantee u that we will get some crappy and confusing speech from falco about how strong and inspiring ikki's wind is

it's classic O!G style....overpower and hype the main character and for get about everybody else. Though he has done a good job with agito

but u gotta love em though the man is one hell of an artist :) this is my prediction and im sticking to it ^^

sabret00the

09-06-2008, 11:12 AM

this is my prediction and im sticking to it ^^
The problem is that if Koga don't get through by beating Sleeping Forest fair and square, it cheapens the manga and then all of a sudden we can all expect them to win all major victories by any cheap means. Koga have already been let off once with the White Wolves match. We don't need to see that again. They have to beat Sleeping Forest, they have to make Spitfire jealous.

Reincarnation

09-06-2008, 11:29 AM

The problem is that if Koga don't get through by beating Sleeping Forest fair and square, it cheapens the manga and then all of a sudden we can all expect them to win all major victories by any cheap means. Koga have already been let off once with the White Wolves match. We don't need to see that again. They have to beat Sleeping Forest, they have to make Spitfire jealous.i look at this as only traning for them because it isnt real and the only thing becoming stronger is thier mental state

i see this battle as nothing but a way for koga to come uo with effective plans to defeat kilik, sora, etc.

but i may be wrong ^^